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For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.  
User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 62
Posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3788 times:
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Musang? AZJ?

When you taxi up to the runway and turn onto it, do you normally hold the brakes while starting to spool up the engines and then let go?

Or do you just turn on to the runway, line up and slowly advance the throttle?

Some airline video I've seen suggests that pilots will turn onto the runway, line up and hold the brakes. Then as the engines spool up, then let go and the a/c lurches forward.

Just another thought I had. I checked the search but to no avail.




Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMusang From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 864 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3304 times:

Hi Mirrodie

With a non-limiting runway, line up, release brakes and steadily increase to t/o thrust.

Some short runways with difficult terrain, e.g. those in valleys, spool up to t/o thrust on the brakes, then release.

One place we go, Geilo in Norway, has a compacted snow runway. At full thrust, the brakes won't hold it so we have to give in and let it go!

Regards - Musang


User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 3236 times:

To confirm Musang's statement, at my airline we would prefer to spool up without brakes held provided the runway length is non-limiting.

Otherwise we hold the brakes as we stabilise the thrust, then once stable release brakes and advance to takeoff thrust (757/767).

Hope this helped!



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineCV640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 3206 times:

It actually depends. I fly for Northwest Airlink and with the CRJ all our performance numbers over ACARS are based off of a standing take off with us running the engines up and stablizing before we release the breaks. Supposedly they are working with Jeppeson to develop rolling take off numbers.

User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3166 times:

Our manual allows us to make "rolling" takeoffs provided the available runway is at 10% greater than our calculated takeoff distance. It makes for a much more comfortable takeoff for our passengers.

User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3157 times:

In over 30 years of airline flying, have never done anything other than rolling takeoffs EXCEPT stabilized thrust for a predetermined period due to engine anti-icing requirements.
IF I catch any pilot standing on the brakes with max thrust in our airline, he/she will be terminated forthwith...and yes, am in management.


User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3065 times:
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Thanks to Musang and all of you.

As always, you guys rock and make this forum a pleasure.



Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlineWhiskeyNovembr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3069 times:


411A states, "IF I catch any pilot standing on the brakes with max thrust in our airline, he/she will be terminated forthwith...and yes, am in management".

Attitudes like this are exactly what lead to the feelings of resentment between airline management and pilot groups. Rather than taking the stance of immediate termination and direct threats, airline management would do well to treat their employees with respect and create an environment in which all may learn from their mistakes and become safer in the process.

This is exactly the direction the aviation governing and safety authorities have taken. Remember when the industry subscribed to the theory that anything less than 100% perfection would lead to termination? Pilots were afraid to ever talk about human error for fear of being terminated. Airline management didn't realize that you can't fix problems you don't know about. A lot of accidents resulted from such narrow-minded thinking.

Luckily, our industry has evolved into an environment in which it is realized that mistakes related to human factors are unavoidable and WILL occur. Programs such as Crew Resource Management (CRM), derived from United's CLR have prevented countless accidents and incidents, and cultivate an open, learning environment in which all can (and do) benefit.

Let me know which airline you fly for, 411A. I'll be sure to take my career elsewhere.





User currently offlineWhalePilot From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3040 times:

Don't worry about it Whiskey November, if this guy is truely management for a Phoenix based airline, they won't be around much longer anyway. And if it's the Phoenix base commuter, you don't want to work there anyway.

User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3035 times:

My god 411A who barked up your tree?

Glad I don't fly for your airline.



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1610 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3040 times:

Well said, sir!!

You are exactly right in saying what you said about 411A. He does not say for whom he flies nor on what aircraft type. I am also not interested in flying with that type of attitude.

The procecures for T/O thrust and brake use would of course be made between the aircraft manufacturer and the performance department of the airline. If the procedure calls for one or another type of T/O then I would expect all pilots who fly that type for that airline to abide by that procedure. Nothing more, nothing less. The attitude that someone is here to "catch" the other one is very poor CRM and is what makes it tough for someone to work with a person with that sort of attitude. In the flight deck we need to work together, not compete with each other and not try to "catch" the other one unless there is a deliberate breach of procedures which compromises safety.






smrtrthnu
User currently offlineFreya From Belgium, joined Dec 2001, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3001 times:

Presumably, then,411A, during those 30 years you have never had occasion to depart from a runway which is field length limited? Would you perhaps care to modify your remarks with particular reference to 4 jet transport aircraft departing ASPEN? Thank you.

User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3017 times:

Don't worry guys, many (if not all) of the posters here would NOT be welcome anyway. We hire professionals, with a very good repoire between flight crew and management....and the young First Officers learn first-hand the proper way to operate the aircraft....and these guys all smile on the way to the bank.
Not in PHX either...more like half way 'round the world.
Standing, full thrust takeoffs are necessary ONLY when the runway is very limiting....we instead reduce the MTOW (payload)...thereby saving the engines for another day. It is called....cost effective management.
The engines used (RB.211) are expensive ($2.5 million+) to overhaul, not a small amount in our opinion.
Oh yes, CRM...well, we hire very experienced Captains so that there is NO mis-understanding about WHOM is in charge, period.
Over...



User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3000 times:

411A

Just wondering - What does your FOM say about full thrust/holding the brakes?




User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2984 times:

Essential power--
Not to be done unless there is no other option.
And IMHO, not to be done, period. The concerned pilot had better have at least a dozen reasons.
A better solution would be to hold brakes, stabilize engines at 60% N1, release brakes and advance throttles smoothly and firmly to max EPR, to be set between 40 to 80 knots at the latest.
And, the key crew member here is the Flight Engineer, which we highly appreciate.



User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2960 times:

What are your concerns w/ holding brakes at max thrust? By the nature of the situation, this scenario wouldn't be an everyday event...

From what you say, reducing payload in order to reduce engine stress by a slight amount doesn't make sense. Maximizing payload is the name of the game; if max blast is required to maximize PAYload, so be it. I think a crew would have a tougher time explaining why they offloaded PAYload in order to save the engines. With that kind of logic, why not just put the a/c in a hangar and lock the doors?


User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2950 times:

My guess is that you're worried about compressor stalls...I don't know much about the RB211 or the L1011, but hopefully you're a little more flexible than you sound. Crews are paid to exercise judgement and fly the a/c; your position sounds like micro management.


User currently offlineWhiskeyNovembr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2939 times:



411A states: "We hire professionals, with a very good repoire between flight crew and management....and the young First Officers learn firsthand the proper way to operate the aircraft."

So...let me see if I understand you correctly, 411A. Are you suggesting that your wonder-pilots are immune to human error? Are they advanced androids? From another planet, perhaps?




Just when you think he can't outdo himself, 411A states: "Oh yes, CRM...well, we hire very experienced Captains so that there is NO misunderstanding about WHOM is in charge, period".

This is actually frightening. CREW resource management is not based on hiring experienced captains to order the other flight crew members around. I repeat...it is NOT. Crew resource management revolves around the open exchange of ideas, information, and thoughts pertinent to the flight. While rank and experience dictate who has the ultimate authority, a captain such as yourself who does not permit his or her flight crew to express themselves or does not properly respect and utilize their crewmembers own flight experience will burn in a crash or rot in a watery grave.

Air Florida had a captain like that once. If you had any desire to evolve into a safe, modern aviator, you'd read a little about CRM and learn that he took 74 people to their graves with him. Oh, but then again, I guess you're too professional and experienced to concern yourself with such petty matters...








User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2940 times:

No problem with compressor stalls on the RB.211, EssentialPower, I just consider it VERY bad form to hold brakes with MAX power. And as my opinion counts, it just is not done.
And for WhiskeyNovember, the problem with Palm 90 (Air Florida) was the Captain. He had VERY little cold weather experience. The blame there can be pointed directly at their flight operations management. Very poor training.
And as for CRM, the way it is presented today, IMHO 'tis a complete waste of time. In years past, it was called "co-operation" and seemed to work quite well indeed. Ideas are exchanged and a plan developed.
The only part of CRM courses today that I find worthwhile is accident/incident review. Much can be learned from others' mistakes.


User currently offlineMusang From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 864 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2908 times:

411A is either deliberately trying to wind us up, or is a prime example of the saying - those most in need of CRM training are the ones most resistant to it.

Regards - Musang


User currently offlineFreya From Belgium, joined Dec 2001, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2898 times:

All in all I am inclined to think that this is probably a wind up. However, taking this individual at face value - whatever that might be - I wonder what the Manufacturers' Operations Manual of his aircraft type has to say on the subject of take off performance ? Of course, it seems likely that his opinion will prevail no matter what - which is the prerogative of 'the Operator'. It raises some rather exciting questions though on the issue of product liability.And I suppose the regulatory regime under which this individuals' carrier operates - if indeed there is an operation - have endorsed his or her somewhat challenging concepts of management philosophy? Haven't they?valeat quantum valere potest!

User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2880 times:

I can't think of any reason not to be able to do full thrust/hold the brakes on any a/c, particularly when it's rarely done to begin with. Many times in this industry, people do things think they're technically correct, when they aren't.

So, for 411A to condsider it bad form, with no valid reason, and demand that no one else does it, fits with his leadership style (or lack thereof).


User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2866 times:
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Musang, thanks for your input. How is everything going? Hope all is well.

And thanks to all of you all for your input.

Amazing how a thread can take a turn for the worse, eh?

411A, I know NOTHING about your field. At the same time, I know about management/labor relations and one's bottom line.

I would look into your strategy a little closer.  Big thumbs up
It would translate to better relations with employees, increased productivity, well,... I think you know the rest. But merely barking out dogma (as it seems) is counterporductive.





Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3474 posts, RR: 47
Reply 23, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2864 times:

>When you taxi up to the runway and turn onto it, do you normally
>hold the brakes while starting to spool up the engines and then
>let go?
>
>Or do you just turn on to the runway, line up and slowly
>advance the throttle?

AA's normal procedure is to perform a rolling takeoff. i.e. do not hold the brakes. That is not to say that pilots are forbidden from holding the brakes. Many locations _require_ holding the brakes! i.e. SNA.
In the end, it remains Captain's Authority what _technique_ he will utilize.

>Some airline video I've seen suggests that pilots will turn onto the
>runway, line up and hold the brakes. Then as the engines spool up,
>then let go and the a/c lurches forward.

Highly doubtful the engine spool up is to MAX power. Even at SNA we don't (normally can't) hold brakes at MAX power. We do spool them up quite a bit though. Big grin



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2853 times:

We instruct our guys to do it OUR way...and strangly...they don't object. EXPERIENCE pays!
Paychecks don't bounce either.
Our DFO is retired DAL....superb fellow, and everyone respects same. If it ain't broke....don't fix it!


25 EssentialPowr : About a year ago, a topic "How to Screw a 727 Crew in the Sim" popped up. The latter stages of this thread seem similar.
26 Aerobalance : So what's the T/O procedure at SNA with a fully loaded MD-90, 5700' runway on a 85 deg. f. day w/ noise abatement procedures?
27 Jetguy : Hey guys… Cut 411A some slack. I, for one, know exactly where he’s coming from. As a corporate pilot, we often operate out of “minim
28 Skystar : Just out of interest, on the A340 you cannot go beyond 70N1 whilst holding on the brakes. A lot of people report that the pilot "spooled up to takeoff
29 Post contains links and images L-188 : Keep in mind that everybody here seems to be focused on turbine powered airliners. Yes. I am aware that piston engines don't "spool up" Click for larg
30 411A : Well L-188, having flown DC-6B's many years ago, I can tell you for a fact that operators do not runup to full power with the brakes set on gravel run
31 JA54123 : I have seen pilots do it many ways. They will do it one of three ways. 1. They will spool the engines as they are turning using the inside brake to li
32 WhiskeyNovembr : 411A isn't going to kill innocent passengers because of his takeoff techniques. He's going to kill them because of his "I'm captain, I'm God" philoso
33 411A : Well WhiskeyNovember, you sound like someone who is mis-informed about large aircraft aircarrier line operations...when you grow up perhaps you will h
34 AAR90 : >So what's the T/O procedure at SNA with a fully loaded MD-90, >5700' runway on a 85 deg. f. day w/ noise abatement procedures? Do a search, I've expl
35 Post contains images Oldman : Just listen to all the experts! I agree completely with 411A and AAR90 just to mention a few. I have not posted here is some time for the simple reaso
36 Musang : Quote from the Avro 146/RJ Manufacturers Ops Manual page 9-10-1-1, 12 Feb '96 - "Take off power should be set before releasing the brakes unless field
37 411A : Ah yes, a British design...the four engine wonder...perhaps this is why they don't make it anymore. Is THIS the same bird that FLAMES OUT all four in
38 Freya : 411A : Just a question : remind me of the provenance of these power units and where you yourself are sitting ? Have a nice day.....
39 Musang : 411 if you were making a point, I'm afraid I missed it. I simply thought some other people would be interested in take-off procedures, as per the orig
40 Post contains images Mirrodie : Damn, great thread! And Musang, I appreciate you're telling it straight. Thanks to you all. 411A: I beg you to tell me what line you supposedly work f
41 Cricri : and..... until what Thrust ratio are brakes able to hold the aircraft? I mean, if full power is applied will the plane still be kept at a complete sto
42 Skyguy11 : I fly GA planes out of SNA and I commonly see them spool up while holding the brakes prior to takeoff. This is important because of the 5400' (or so)
43 411A : Mirrodie, why do you want to know? I do not "work" for the airline, I manage it...and do ALL of the flight crew hiring. Are you qualified perhaps? If
44 Theiler : 411A, I sincerely hope that your managerial skills aren't as marginal as your apparent people skills. While you are certainly very knowledgeable, the
45 ThirtyEcho : Agreed, Oldman. Except for the part where you tell only the men to fly safe; there are plenty of women in the cockpit, now. Just between us old codger
46 ThirtyEcho : One more thing, Oldman. Like you, I'd never accept a "position and hold" on a short field and then blast gravel at the empenage while standing on the
47 AAR90 : >...until what Thrust ratio are brakes able to hold the aircraft? You need to talk with the manufacturer about their test data to find this out. >I me
48 Post contains images Cricri : Tx AAR90 for your reply.
49 Mirrodie : Musang and AAR90, thanks for your detailed insights. 411A, quit talking out of your arrogant derriere. "I do not "work" for the airline, I manage it"-
50 411A : Well, just like most doctors Mirrodie, you "think" you know everything....but aviation is VERY unforgiving of those that do NOT have the proper knowle
51 Barney captain : 411a, your arrogance is unbeliveable. It is clear you don't relalize how it completely destroys the respect from others that you so desperately seek.
52 Mirrodie : Obviously I don't know everything, otherwise I wouldn't have asked the question. And if you *think* you were talked down to, well, that's something yo
53 WhiskeyNovembr : Barney, Are you by chance the Barnes that conducts the CRM classes at the training center?
54 Post contains images Barney captain : Whiskey (Luv the name!), No amigo, simply a reference to the our new "Canyon Blue" paint scheme (aka Barney Purple ).
55 WhiskeyNovembr : Ha! Love it!
56 Post contains images BlueShamu330s : Ah, 411A, an old sparing partner from PPRUNE Another attempt to flame the 146/RJ/Avro for engine rundown, roll back, call it what you like. That, old
57 Aerobalance : Thanks to AAR90 and Barney Captain for your insight to the N1 percentage at brake release for runway 19R at SNA. It's interesting to see the differenc
58 Barney captain : Aero, The spool-up at SNA isn't to check engine condition before launch (aka "run-up"). It is to allow for a maximum performance TO to gain the most a
59 Post contains images AAR90 : The spool-up at SNA provides two things; gets both engines spinning so you don't have differential power application while trying to get FULL POWER fr
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