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Back Up Gages No Longer Recquired?  
User currently offlineSoku39 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1797 posts, RR: 9
Posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1879 times:


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Photo © Peter Unmuth - Vienna Aviation Photography



As I look at this panel I see no back-up vacuum run gauges. I thought a set of backups were recquired on all flightdecks or am I severely mistaken?


The Ohio Player
14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAir2gxs From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1837 times:

As long as the requirement for redundancy is satisfied, any type of instrument is allowed.



User currently offlineSoku39 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1797 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1826 times:

Which is obviously what Dornier was aiming for....


The Ohio Player
User currently offlineDG_pilot From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 856 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1823 times:

That is the ugliest flight deck I have ever seen.

User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4195 posts, RR: 37
Reply 4, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1824 times:

In the cockpit engineer's meeting:

"HEY!! I GOT A GREAT IDEA!!! WE'LL MAKE IT BLUE!!!"


Sweet cockpit though. I like the airbus grey or boeing tan better.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineB767-400er From Hong Kong, joined Apr 2000, 290 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1816 times:

IMO, this cockpit looks alright, other then the yoke which looks like a thing out of a 3 year old's play set, and the lack of things (switches, etc.) on the side panels. I don't know, just, like it's missing something being so empty.

BTW, is that a parking brake handle on the captain-side center padestal? It looks better then the "T" style turn knob found in many others.

Tony,
B767-400er


User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1808 times:

No vacuum gauges in any turbine powered airplane that I've ever flown. All primary and standby instruments were electric - powered by different power sources.


User currently offlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1648 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1796 times:

This is a fake of some kind. Not only is there no redundant AI or HSI, the yokes are differentially displaced. I think that the Transylvania Nightmare Blue is cute, though  Nuts.

User currently offlineTechRep From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1777 times:

Remember a few things here, the yoke, transition and rudder pedals are all from a Do328, it is my guess that this will change. In concept drawings they looked different so it is my guess they were not ready so they used Do328 stuff to get ready for rollout. This is basically how the cockpit will look but there are some things still to be added. The yokes are not differently placed it just has the illusion one is set higher. You will notice no chronometers and Standby Attitude Indicator and Standby Compass are present in digital format in the middle

You will notice as well three FMS units, however the FMS and RMU are incorporated into one unit now, so radios, TCAS, ADF, etc will all be tuned/selected through those units. As you transition down you will notice cursor control devices for GUI interface with the EFIS system. Next audio selection panels and notice the start panel for engines is behind the throttles with no fuel selection knobs, auto start sequencing, none needed.

Like any all digital cockpit there is no brilliance when it is off. Wait till you power up the PRIMUS EPIC avionics suite that's when things get interesting. I like the cockpit but the blue doesn't look as good as it did on the Do328.

TechRep


User currently offlineJsuen From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1749 times:

A number of new airliners use an electronic HSI standby (or Integrated Standby Instrument System in Airbus terms), including the 717, A340-600, 318, and to a certain extent the 777. The instrument is there, the small square display right under the middle of the glareshield.


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User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1743 times:

The statement:

"As long as the requirement for redundancy is satisfied, any type of instrument is allowed."

Is wrong. There are more standards and regulations at play here than is obvious. You can't just "fill the hole" with anything.

Large aircraft must meet the requirements of FAR 25. The standard that requires the standby instruments is FAR 25.1333(b) which reads:

(b) The equipment, systems, and installations must be designed so that one display of the information essential to the safety of flight which is provided by the instruments, including attitude, direction, airspeed, and altitude will remain available to the pilots, without additional crewmember action, after any single failure or combination of failures that is not shown to be extremely improbable.

Extremely Impropable is accepted to represent 1 failure in a billion flight hours. That means the occurance of complete loss of attitude or altitude or airspeed indications must be extremely remote.

The failure rate is calculated by using actual failure data available from the manufacturer of the components. Until recently, no electronic instrument was capable of meeting the failure criteria so "standard steam driven" instruments were used. Some only find their way into cockpits because the basic airplane enjoys triple redundancy for the subject systems.

So, the short answer is that you can use electronic standby instruments to meet the rule only if you can acheive the same required criticality.

One last note, the term "vacuum driven" is causing confusion. Airspeed instruments measure differential pressure between the pitot and static air sources. Altimeters measure static pressure. These instruments are NOT "vacuum driven".

However, SOME gyro horizons are driven pneumatically (vaccum or pressure), and many others are driven electrically. A power source is needed to spin the gyro(s).



User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1740 times:

One more clarification: An HSI is a Horizontal Situation Indicator. It provides navigation data consisting of a combination of heading, selected course, course error and vertical deviation. Some also include a distance display, a bearing pointer and additional navigation information.

The integrated standby instrument shown in the 777 photo is commonly refered to as an ISIS or Integrated Standby Instrument System. It displays attitude, airspeed and altitude, and can be configured to overlay some navigation data. It certainly is NOT an HSI.


User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3701 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1735 times:
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I would say the Stby insts in the photo will be contained on the small black screen in the centre top of the panel.

User currently offlineWingscrubber From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 848 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1727 times:

I believe that cockpit photo is a mockup, so it may lack some of the final backup instruments to be added, look through the windows, there's floods of people looking at it...some airshow publicity job.

The Dornier 728 is brand-spanking new kit; this from Janes civil aircraft : The 728 jet will make it's first flight in 2001. Certification and first delivery of the 728 jet is scheduled for early 2003. Certification and first delivery of the 928 jet is scheduled for feb 2004.

Pete



Resident TechOps Troll
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1676 times:

Wingscrubber,

VC-10 is correct. The little screen is the electronic standby instrument. Check out these sites for more information:

http://www.thales-avionics.com/jrun_avionics2/docs/sextant/eng/dco/pdf/esi.pdf

http://www.goodrichavionics.com/docs/gh3000.html

Thales (was Sextant) and Goodrich (was BFG) are the only 2 manufacturers that I know of that make these things.


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