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Some Questions On The B767 And A340  
User currently offlineMr.BA From Singapore, joined Sep 2000, 3423 posts, RR: 22
Posted (12 years 7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6974 times:

Hi guys,

Hope someone can help me here. I'm interested to know! Maybe Rick 767 can help me with the B767 and Skystar on Airbus?

-Average fuel burn on the B762/3?
-MTOW of the B762/3?
-Mmo and Vmo of the B762/3?
-Average cruising Mach for the B762/3?
-Rate of fuel dump of the 762/3?
-Average Take-off trim setting for the 762/3 at or near MTOW?
-Maximum fuel load on the 767-300/B767-300ER?
-what's the overweight landing flap setting on the 767?

-Average fuel burn on the A340?
-MTOW of the A340?
-Average cruising Mach for the A340?
-Rate of fuel dump of the A340?
-Average Take-off trim setting for the A340 at or near MTOW? Airbuses have auto trim?
-Maximum fuel load on the A340-300?
-what's the overweight landing flap setting on the A340?

Thanks a lot everyone!

alvin




Boeing747 万岁!
43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (12 years 7 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6707 times:

Average fuel burn on the B762/3?

For the 767-300 - 2,200 kg/hr per engine = 4,400 kg/hr is the company documented average, goes up to about 5,400/hr at FL310 (MTOW) down to about 4,000 kg/hr towards top of descent up at FL370/390.

MTOW of the B762/3?

762 - 159,210 kg
763 - 186,880 kg

Mmo and Vmo of the B762/3?

Vmo - 360 KIAS
Mmo - Mach 0.84

Average cruising Mach for the B762/3?

Variable and dependant on cost index, but M0.80 is what my airline tends to stick with, fraction less on the eruopean trips (0.79ish). Not really worth going up to 0.82 even when running late due to the reduced fuel economy.

Rate of fuel dump of the 762/3?

1,200 kg/min

Average Take-off trim setting for the 762/3 at or near MTOW?

Not got figures to hand.

Maximum fuel load on the 767-300/B767-300ER?

763ER - 77,750kg
Dunno about the -300? Anyone?

what's the overweight landing flap setting on the 767?

Depends how overweight you are, Flap 25 normally due to Flap 30 LRS activity @ higher speeds. If VRef + 5 + gust factor comes to less than 170 knots we can go with Flap 30. Nice to have some more comfort if it's close though. Flap limit speed for Flap 25 is 180 KIAS and the Vref only increases by 3 knots from memory from Flap 30 to Flap 25.



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineCV640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (12 years 7 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6633 times:

Was the 767 MMo changed t .84 recently? The number that I have is .86 for both the 757/767.

User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (12 years 7 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6620 times:

typo... M0.86 for the 757 & 767.

Rick.



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineFLYSAB From Belgium, joined Nov 1999, 106 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (12 years 7 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6613 times:

And here are the answers for the 340-300.
Average fuel burn : count on 10 tons for the first hour, then 6 tons/hour
MTOW : depending on certification : 257 or 271 tons
Average cruising Mach : .81/.82
Rate of fuel dump : advertised by Airbus as 1 ton/minute
Max fuel load : 109589 Kg based on a fuel density of 0,785 kg/l
Overweight landing flaps setting : Full unless acft weight is above the max weight for go around perfo, which is given in a table. The setting will be given by the ECAM in function of the failure leading to the overweight landing.

Hope this helps you.


User currently offlineRmm From Australia, joined Feb 2001, 525 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (12 years 7 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6579 times:

Did the 762 have a fuel dump system? Never seen one.

Rmm


User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2568 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (12 years 7 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6581 times:

Here's the info for the 767-300ER in our (Hawaiian) configuration.

Avg. fuel flow @ mid-weight about 6000 pounds per hour per engine. (Pratt engines). After max weight TO, initial cruise at FL330 would be at 6750 pphpe. At end of cruise at light weight (260,000 lbs) at FL410 fuel flow would be 4428 pphpe.

MTOW 408,000 lbs

Mmo .86
Vmo 360 kts

Avg. crusing mach .79 - .81 for transpacific

Fuel jettison rate 2600 lbs per minute

Trim at TO avg. 4 - 7 units

Max fuel load 23,980 gallons or 160,666 lbs

Overweight landings are made at flaps 25 if the weight is greater than 360,000 lbs. (Normal max landing weight is 320,000 lbs)

HAL






One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (12 years 7 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6560 times:

No fuel dump on our 762s, but then it's a customer option on all 767 models so I'm not sure..

There are plenty of -300s out there with no fuel jettison too....

Also with regard to the overweight landing it seems that Hawaiian base the weight over which Flap 25 is used on a Flap 30 Vref of 160 knots or more (giving a 10 knot margin on the maximum flap 30 operating speed).

This is also 163,000 kg on our 763s (equivalent of 360,000 lbs). Our company SOPs for the 763 state that

"...it may be necessary to land at Flap 25 if the planned approach speed comes close to the Flap 30 speed limit of 170 knots to avoid Flap LRS activity"

So it appears we get a bit more freedom to choose our flap setting at the more marginal weights around 163 tonnes, depends really what the Captain defines as "comes close to"!

Hope this was of interest.



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2568 posts, RR: 53
Reply 8, posted (12 years 7 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6546 times:

The four 763's we're getting from LTU do not have the fuel jettison option. The other 12 new ones do.

And yes, our manual states in the 'overweight landing' section "To prevent possible flap blow-up at higher approach speeds, flaps 25 are required when landing weights exceeds 360,000 pounds".



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineMr.BA From Singapore, joined Sep 2000, 3423 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (12 years 7 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6530 times:

Thanks to all for the help!

Any idea what's the maximum pitch up angle for the A340/B767 on rotation? The climb pitch angle?

Off topic here, but would like to find out if there is any way to calculate approach speeds for approach in gusting tail wind? I believe you Wind - simply half the wind speed plus the full gust added onto your Vref up to a maximum of Vref +20. (Not too sure if it's the same for the B767/A340)?

Thanks to all again!



Boeing747 万岁!
User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (12 years 7 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6506 times:

Rotation Pitch angle

On the 767-300 a tailstrike will occur at 8 degrees nose-up with main gear compressed and 9.5 degrees nose-up with main gear extended.

Especially important in a continued takeoff after an engine failure as the minimum ground clearance is just 12 inches and occurs just after liftoff.

Climb Pitch angle

This depends upon weight, flap setting and thrust setting.

Anywhere between 15 and 20 degrees nose-up to hold V2+15 on the climbout. Our ops manual states to hold a speed between V2+15 and V2+25 on the initial climb out (pre thrust-reduction / acceleration alt). There is very little difference in actual climb angle between those speeds (though the angle starts to reduce significantly climbing above V2+25).

Gust Factor

"Approach Speed" is Vref+5 in calm wind conditions. The gust factor applied is the difference between the maximum and minimum wind speed reported at the surface. In addition, half the headwind component is applied, with a maximum approach speed of Vref+15.

So Approach Speed = Vref+5+Gust Factor+Half h/w component.

The half headwind component is applied initially to counteract a reduction in gradient headwind as the aircraft descends through the shear layer close to the surface.



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineSkystar From Australia, joined Jan 2000, 1363 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (12 years 7 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6492 times:

You can also get the 343 with a 275ton MTOW.

Max pitch on takeoff for the 343 is 10° (gear compressed)/14° (gear extended). Add two degrees for the 342.

Typically, climb pitch angle (ie. after rotation) is 12.5° on the A340. Just remember, it's not super well endowed with power, and takeoff flap settings aren't as low as those of twinjets (ie. Flap 1=17°, Flap 2=22º (which is Flap 3 on the 330), Flap 3= 26°).

Just to add to the 767 info, you'll get fuselage contact at 9.8° on the 763 & 13.1° on the 762 (gear extended).

Cheers,

Justin


User currently offlineGWB From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (12 years 7 months 5 days ago) and read 6467 times:

Rick767,

I was scan-reading this thread and can't believe the depth of knowledge you have. It's incredible. How do you find time to give such detailed replies? Respect!

GWB


User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (12 years 7 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6469 times:

GWB

Actually it's less fun than it sounds - I have been off work sick for the last few days home alone with a nasty head cold!

Once May comes around life gets pretty hectic...  Sad



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineMr.BA From Singapore, joined Sep 2000, 3423 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (12 years 7 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6452 times:

Thanks everyone especially to Rick767 and Skystar for the excellent replies. That's what I'm looking for! Thanks again everyone, really appreciate the help.

Take care everyone. Especially Rick767, get well soon! Busy schedule for May?

Cheers!

alvin



Boeing747 万岁!
User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (12 years 7 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6441 times:

No probs alvin. Always glad to be of help! Starting to feel a little better now actually.

May is busy with work (just like every May seems to be!!) and I'm also moving house on the 4th.. such fun  Insane

Take care.



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineSkystar From Australia, joined Jan 2000, 1363 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (12 years 7 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6408 times:

You're welcome for the info, we should also thank FLYSAB for the other A340 info  Smile Not to mention HAL for the Hawaiian info as well. Hopefully Rick767 gets better.

Just on the 767 initial climb pitch angle (figures for S/L). On the 762, it can reach as high as ~23.7° (Flap 1, 109ton BRW), and be as low as 16.5° (Flap 20, 160ton BRW).

On the 763, about 21.2° (109ton BRW, Flap 5), or as low as 14.3° (186ton BRW, Flap 20; Flap 15 angle is quite similar).

With one engine out, pitch can range from just over 17° (762-F1), to 10.5° (763-F20).

Cheers,

Justin


User currently offlineMr.BA From Singapore, joined Sep 2000, 3423 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (12 years 7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6393 times:

Thanks FLYSAB and HAL too  Smile Should say "thanks everyone" so I won't miss out anybody as everyone did help me  Smile A few more questions I have managed to come up... I actually thought of them in my dreams, can you believe that!!??

How much can the nose gear of the B767s/A340s turn left/right on the ground while taxying? If full rudder is kicked into the same direction of the turn, how much more degrees can it provide to aid the turn?

Does the taxi lights on the B767 turns off automatically after the main gear leaves the ground (from ground to air sensing mode) like the B747s? I have seen a few Qantas B767s' taxi lights turns off automatically after lift-off.

Thanks everyone!

Cheers take care. Glad to hear you are getting better Rick767! Not inviting me to your house warming party? Big grin

alvin





Boeing747 万岁!
User currently offlineSkystar From Australia, joined Jan 2000, 1363 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (12 years 7 months 4 days ago) and read 6359 times:

If I recall correctly, the A340/330 will give about 70° nosewheel steering, however a few years back this was limited, as extreme angles of steering were causing extra strain on the landing gear.

Pushing the rudder pedals will not increase nosewheel steering angle, the tiller will give much more than the rudder pedals. Nosewheel steering via rudder commands is also cancelled above 100kts

Cheers,

Justin


User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (12 years 7 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6324 times:

Alvin,

Now you're dreaming about the 767, that's worrying! Maximum nosewheel deflection is 65 degrees on the 767.

You've caught me on the taxi light one though, I have no idea. I guess they do go out with the air/ground logic (after all, that would be logical!).

Will dig out the tech manuals when I get chance and see what they say.

No chance on the house warming mate, I don't even think I would be able to arrange one before October the rate things are going... I hate moving! I'm really starting to crack up  Crying!!

Take care.



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineFLYSAB From Belgium, joined Nov 1999, 106 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (12 years 7 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6319 times:

According to my FCOM, the max angle for the nosewheel of the 340 is 65°.
Actually we have had a lot of technical notes about it since the gear collapse of one of our 340 a few years ago, and some changes were made to the software as well. So I am not 100% sure about it.
On newer models it is probably different.
On our newest 330 the max angle was 72°.

Greetings.


User currently offlineMr.BA From Singapore, joined Sep 2000, 3423 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (12 years 7 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6283 times:

Thanks again Rick Skystar and FLYSAB. Very interesting I thought.  Smile No worries Rick I'm sure everything will be over soon so just bear with it  Smile I'm sure you wuld like your new house! But I would sure want to know what's so worrynig about me dreaming over the B767! Big grin How's life in AUS Justin?

Do you guys have these figures for the B767/A340? The B744 has:

- 2000 feet above optimum altitude, 1-2% increase in trip fuel.

-4000 feet below optimum altidute, 2-4% increase in trip fuel.

-8000 feet below optimum, 8-12% increase in trip fuel

Cruise M.01 above schedule, 2% increase in trip fuel

Thanks all again! Cheerios!

alvin



Boeing747 万岁!
User currently offlineMr.BA From Singapore, joined Sep 2000, 3423 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (12 years 7 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6265 times:

The "-" was meant as a bullet point not "minus". Sorry!


Boeing747 万岁!
User currently offlineGE From Singapore, joined Mar 2000, 320 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (12 years 7 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6248 times:

For B767,
if I recall correctly,
2000 FT above optimum – 3 percent increase in fuel usage
4000 FT below optimum – 5 percent increase in fuel usage
8000 FT below optimum –12 percent increase in fuel usage
M.01 above M.80 – 3 percent increase in fuel usage


User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (12 years 7 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6210 times:

Not so sure on this one...

Our Flight Training Manual for the 757/767 gives the following figures:

2,000ft above optimum = 0.5% - 1% fuel penalty
4,000ft below optimum = 1% - 3% fuel penalty
8,000ft below optimum = 2% - 5% fuel penalty
Cruise Speed 0.01M above schedule = 1% - 2% fuel penalty

The table does not specify, however, whether it is specific to the 757/762/763. I would presume the figures differ quite a bit for each variant. I have a feeling the ones above actually refer to the 757. Don't have a performance manual myself so couldn't check for sure.

If you look at the 767-300 Cruise Tables though, the figures GE states above look more realistic.

For example, an increase in cruise speed from Mach from 0.80 to 0.82 over an entire flight results in roughly a 3% increase in fuel burn, but then the increase between 0.82 and 0.84 results in a 9 - 10% increase!



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
25 Tsentsan : Hi Rick767, FlySAB, GE, Justin and Alvin, On the subject of steering I've got a few quick Q. I've kinda heard that tillers are not really used *all* t
26 GE : Hi Tsentsan, Tillers are used for steering on taxiways or when lining up on the runway before takeoff. The tiller is very sensitive and allows about 7
27 Post contains images Tsentsan : Russell, Thank u, has cleared up my doubt on that issue I think the 777-300 has the main gear tilting/steering feature too cos its wayyyyy too long...
28 Post contains images Mr.BA : Thanks everyone for the responses again. Just wondering if the ETA at destination given by the FMC takes descend into consideration? If not, wouldn't
29 Rick767 : Alvin, The FMC models the descent quite accurately, and based on entered speed and altitude restrictions across the descent profile via a STAR to the
30 Tsentsan : Rick767, Got a Q regarding ETA ... lets say you're assigned XYZ STAR, but whilst on descent, you're told to cancel the STAR and given radar vectors? W
31 Rick767 : Tsentsan, First of all we would use Heading Select when given radar vectors, Heading Hold on the 757 / 767 (and as I understand most Boeings) merely h
32 Post contains images Tsentsan : Rick767, Roger that, thank u Makes it simplier now. What if ATC doesnt tell u to cancel STAR, mainly somethinglike "Fly heading 240 for seperation, xx
33 Skystar : You can lose quite a few knots in the flare. I would even bet that the aircraft touched down below Vref. Cheers, Justin
34 Rick767 : What if ATC doesnt tell u to cancel STAR, mainly somethinglike "Fly heading 240 for seperation, xxx miles to touchdown".. Would you still remove the S
35 Mr.BA : Thanks everyone for keeping this thread alive! Really learned much more about the A340 and the B767! Cheers to all! Just thought of another question.
36 Rick767 : Alvin, No, there is no such "damping" tool on the 767 throttles. Our company recommends use of the autothrottle system as much as possible, stating th
37 Post contains images Mr.BA : Thanks Rick767 once again.
38 Mr.BA : Anyone can help me with this? What's the average climb rate of the B767 after taken off at MTOW passing FL 280 for FL 310? I suppose you would be clim
39 Post contains images Tsentsan : Rick, Thanks mate Sorry didnt reply earlier been busy with assignments.. :-( Hehehe,,, see ya around Tsentsan
40 Post contains images Skystar : Alvin, You sound like you're having a bit of fun with Flight Simulator Cheers, Justin
41 Alberto Riva : Small correction on the 767-200 MTOW: the highest is actually 175 540 kg (ER operated by South African and Air Zimbabwe with PW4056).
42 Post contains images Mr.BA : Yeah I am Justin... Using the PSS panel on the B744... certainly the best panel I have ever used.
43 Rick767 : Alvin, With regard to climb rates, from my own experience and memory!! 763 Takeoff at about 175t (10t off MTOW) for a flight to MCO typically, lowest
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