Flyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks ago) and read 2678 times:
Are FBO rental rates getting out of control? It seems like the cost of insurance is growing by leaps and bounds, as well as the desire to make up losses from last fall. Around here (Denver area) rates for some aircraft have gone up as much as 70% since January. 152s are costing up to $60/hr, with 172Ns up to $85/hr and 182s up to $150/hr.
Is this happening elsewhere? If so, does it seem like the across the board increases are getting to a level that is satisfactory with the owners, or will prices continue to increase at the enormus rates?
PPGMD From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2453 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2616 times:
Those are about at the national average. The biggest thing is that in most cases at the smaller FBOs, some aircraft don't fly as much as they should. Thus costing more per an hour. But conversly there is the effect that the aircraft is harder to schdule.
DPrush From United States of America, joined May 2002, 97 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2611 times:
I've noticed that too. Smaller FBOs are charging outrageous rates nowdays, while the larger, commercial field based ones are becoming more reasonable. Here in MD, an older C172 can be had for 63/hour wet at a larger FBO, compared to upper 70s at a smaller outfit. Instructor prices though, sheesh, upper 30s everywhere
TurbineBeaver From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1199 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2566 times:
I agree with you man. The price of the plane is fine, especially when you consider "you pay for what you get" it's true, maintenance at riddle is awesome. I've had landing lights, and beacons fixed while preflighting. I just don't understand the CFI rates. The riddle CFI's get paid about $12 an hr, YET, we pay $45 for them. Where the HELL is this $33 going to?? It is going to RIDDLE to compensate for what they don't get from tuition. Or to SOMEWHERE. Maybe Douchette's pocket!
PPGMD From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2453 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2554 times:
You say the front page of the Avioff. Its going to Dr. Evil Ebbs
Part of it goes to the benes, another part is going to the tution discount that the instructors get, finally a part goes to the general fund.
Thats how I see it going, for me that just too much markup. One thing though that it does is that they all charge the same, they could charge a lower rate for a student instrutor vs. a full time one. But what happens when he goes full time. Personally I think it all is just to make it less that people complain about diffrent pricing schemes.
Unfortunatly it didn't work as planned, too many people know what they pay the IPs, and they know what they charge.
TurbineBeaver From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1199 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2550 times:
Exactly. It seems like us flight students are the one's picking up the tab for just about everything, (I wonder where they got the $$ for the new AWS building........). Oh well, riddle won't change. It is just something I'll have to deal with, letting Riddle rip me off! My favorite name is Chief Pilot, Mr. Ken Douchebag.
FlightSimFreak From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 720 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2519 times:
Rental of my aircraft went up from 39/hour to 45/hour... Grandpa got pissed, went in and yelled at the FBO owner's daughter (she's the secratary) and decided he wasn't going to pay... I talked him back into paying and he went down there with me, and I got the rate garenteed and he wrote them a check for a couple thousand dollars... nice grandpa, eh?
PPGMD From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2453 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2516 times:
Right now I am finishing my IFR, and working on my glider commerical. At the same time I am building time for my airplane commerical. Thinking about getting my multi-engine after I am done with the IFR.
Don't know, I just want to have my airplane comm. done by next summer because I want to do the CFI/I fast track program. I have no intention to work for Riddle, I just want to get it done in two-three months. After that I might do my MEI/I at Riddle it just depends on how expensive it actually is. At the same time I would be getting my CFIG.
Jetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2525 times:
This is a very interesting thread. Costs have certainly increased over the past 35 years. Everything's relative though...
I learned to fly back in 1966 in an Aeronca 7AC Champ that cost me $4.00 per hour/wet. In 1967 I could rent a brand new Cessna 150 from the local FBO for $6.00 per hour/wet in 10 hour blocks. Cessna 170s rented for $8.00 an hour and Mooney M20Cs rented for $16. I know that sounds pretty cheap, but I was earning $1.25 an hour bagging groceries at the time. My PPL cost me about $600, but that represented 480 hours of "bagging groceries". I'm sure that it's about the same today. Flying never has been nor will it ever be inexpensive.
One thing that seemed to be more popular back then was flying clubs. The Champ and C170 that I flew belonged to a club. However, the other planes were were FBO aircraft. In additon to belonging to various flying clubs, I've also been in several aircraft partnerships and I've even owned a few aircraft outright. Schools, like ERAU, and FBOs charge what they do because they can. There are ways to get around the high costs, but you have to be creative.
If I were you, I'd check to see if there were any flying clubs in your area. Typically, most flying clubs have five or more members per aircraft. They usually are "non-profit” organizations designed to provide club members with a less expensive alternative to either renting or outright ownership. These clubs own or lease one or more aircraft and make them available to club members at significantly reduced rates. The best way to find out about any clubs which might be in your area is to go out to the airport on a sunny weekend and ask around. The clubs typically charge an initiation fee, monthly dues, and hourly usage fees. The scheduling is usually handled by a club member and is typically “first come, first served”. It is not uncommon for club members to share aircraft cleaning and maintenance responsibilities.
One of the other ways I've owned aircraft in in partnership with other pilots. Partnerships are similar to flying clubs, but with fewer participants. (Usually four or less.) Like clubs, partnerships save money by dividing the fixed and indirect costs of aircraft ownership among multiple individuals. There are as many ways to organize partnerships as there are partners. Normally, each partner owns a share of the airplane and is responsible for a corresponding percentage of the fixed and indirect costs such as insurance, hangar, taxes, annual inspections, etc.
Sole Ownership is a reasonable alternative for many people. Good, well maintained used aircraft are readily available and can be purchased at prices ranging from about $15,000. Ownership, either individual or in a partnership gives you control over your situation. You know exactly how well the plane is being maintained; you know what the plane’s idiosyncrasies are; you have much more control over the schedule; and finally, GOOD CLEAN USED AIRCRAFT TEND TO APPRECIATE IN VALUE. Over the years, I’ve been involved in several aircraft partnerships. My first partnership was in a Luscombe 8F. We purchased it while I was working on my instrument rating and commercial license. I was able to use the airplane for a significant portion of my training. After I had obtained my ratings I sold my share of the airplane. In the eighteen months that I had owned it, it had appreciated enough to cover all of its operating costs. In other words, flying the Luscombe had cost me nothing! It would be a mistake to purchase an airplane expecting the appreciation to totally cover the cost of operation, because like buying a used car, there is always some risk. However, if you do your “homework”, shop carefully, and have a bit of luck you may be able to recoup a significant portion of your training costs when and if you ever decide to sell.
If you plan on flying a minimal amount after you complete your training it will probably be more economical to simply rent your aircraft. If you happen to live in an area where there are no flying clubs and/or partnerships it might be worth your while to organize one. It’s not difficult and there are several books and publications available to assist you.
Bottom line is this: All any potiential employer cares about is the ratings and experience that you have, not where or how you got them. Upon graduating from ERAU you are not issued a special FAA certificate with a gold seal that says "Graduate of ERAU". ER is a good and highly respected school. We have a couple of their graduates that work for us and I have flown with several others. Their flight training program turns out good pilots. However, you pay a high price for what you get. Is it necessary? Personally, I don't believe so. I have always felt that the CFI is the single most importent factor in determining the quality of the training that you are receiving. Whether you select ERAU or another flight school or even decide to use a “freelance” flight instructor the quality of your training will be largely determined by individual flight instructor’s skills, abilities, and experience. The best flight school facilities, training curriculum or the newest, best equipped training aircraft can not compensate for a mediocre flight instructor. ERAU certainly has not cornered the market on good instructors - they are where you find them.
Illini_152 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1000 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2484 times:
I'm going to second what Jetguy has said here and recomend looking for a flying club if you want to build hours before you can get a job flying or without paying an arm and a leg.
Right now, I pay $45/month in dues at my club, in return I have access to a 182, a 172M, a 172R, a PA28-151 and a Citabria 7ECA. The planes are almost always available, all but the Citabria are not only IFR equiped, but I wouldn't (havn't) hesitated to fly them in IMC.
The worst one is the 182 as far as cost goes, its $88/hr wet, with a 280 horse engine, GNS430, dual glideslopes, ADF, DME, long range fuel and wing leveler. I can stock it with 4 pilots, and fly somewhere for the weekend, and we effectivly pay 22/hr.
Cheapest is the Citabria at $39/hr. And she's just a fun little bird to toss around
Clubs are the way to go in my opinion. Join one, get a few friends together and go on a trip. Split the costs, see the country and have fun!
Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
Jhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6197 posts, RR: 13 Reply 17, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2485 times:
The Cessna 150 out at Bryan Coulter Field (CFD) is still $40/hr. wet. At Easterwood (CLL), the 172s run about $65/hr. In 1996 when I was doing my PPL, the 152 was $45/hr, 172 was $60/hr, and the 172RG was $75/hr.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
Serge From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1989 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2472 times:
At Servair West, my local FBO at KISN (Williston, ND) I am paying $52 an hour for a Cessna 152 and another $30 an hour for the instructor. Very cheap considering the aircraft is in great maintainance and we aren't charged for the instructor's time on the ground! The aircraft rental rate for the 152 did go up $3 though since last year, but thats nothing to pay for quality....
Sadly, it looks like I will move before I will get my PPL (I am only 14 though, I have 9.1 hours), so I will be paying through the arse, especially if I live in the DC area (looks like it'll be DC).
Av8trxx From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 657 posts, RR: 7 Reply 19, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2473 times:
As long as there is a staff and overhead to pay for, what else would you expect? The object of running a business is to turn a profit.
Want better prices? Try looking for a flying CLUB in your area. Most are NOT FOR PROFIT, and operated by the members for the members.
In San Diego, one such club is Plus One Flyers. Cessna 152s go for $49, C172s for $64 and Archers rent for $75. Check out the Fleet List & Prices and see for yourself. Flying clubs are a better way to fly AND save money! Look for one in your area. I saved at least $10-15K over the course of all my ratings.