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737-800 Operating Procedure?  
User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9540 times:


I have been trying to fly the 737's as *realistically* as possible. Any 737 drivers out there who could guide me?

This is what i normally do:

I use FSNAV to prepare my flight plan. It doesnt calculate the fuel load correctly, so i do it manually.

The following table shows the suggested cruise heights and speeds

<30 mins - FL150@440 knots - 63%N1 - ~6000 pds/hr
<1.5 hrs - FL240@460 knots - 66%N1 - ~4500 pds/hr
2 hrs - FL350@470 knots - 68%N1 - ~2900 pds/hr
Long Haul - FL390@440 knots - 68%N1 - ~2400 pds/hr

While taxying to the rwy, set the reqd cruise height and VS-Speed to 2000 fpm. Line up, set the flaps to 1 notch (2 notches for shorter rwy's) and advance the throttle to 95-96% N1. For longer rwys 93% is sufficient. Rotate *gently* at ~140kts. Crossing 200 feet AGL, retract the Gear and set the autopilot controls to handle the VSPeed. Reduce throttle to get 80%. As the aircraft crosses 190 knots, increase VSpeed on the autopilot panel (or increase trim if you are flying manually) to around 3000 fpm, and reduce/retain flap to 7* (one notch). Set autothrottle to maintain 230 knots till you cross FL100. Reduce VSpeed to 2000 fpmand retract flaps to Zero as you cross 250 kts. IAS should climb to ~400 knots. As you cross FL200, Reduce VSpeed further to 1000 fpm and let aircraft accelerate to 460 knots.

On descent, cut throttle to 30%, and set trim to descend at ~1800 fpm crossing FL200, after which reduce VSpeed to ~1500 fpm. IAS will reduce to ~300-320 knots crossing FL150. Use speed brakes to reduce speed to 230 knots. Set 1 notch of Flap. Fly pattern at 220 knots. Reduce speed further to 190 knots on turn to finals approx 12 nm out. Let aircraft decelerate normally, and Increase flap by one notch as speed drops by 10 knots. Lower gear 4 nm out. Reduce VSpeed to ~750 fpm. Set throttle to ~35-40% which will give around 140 knots. Arm the spoilers ~2nm out.

switch off autopilot 500 ft AGL. Cut throttle and flare slightly ~200 ft AGL. Increase one flap notch after cutting throttle to prevent sink. Touchdown at ~120-130 knots. Thrust Rev. as reqd; Brakes after 90 knots. Cut TR's as IAS <60 knots. Retract Spoilers and flaps, and taxi to stand @15 knots.

Thanx.

- Roy



14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBeefmoney From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1116 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9487 times:

Well, I dont fly the 737NG but I have some 737-300 operating manuals, and you are told in the manual to set takeoff flaps as soon as you start rolling under your own power from the gate. Also, It sounds like you are putting in some flaps VERY close to touchdown, now, I fly Cessna 172s and if I did that at the time that you say you do, I would be floating quite a bit, or I might even balloon and rise so much that I would lose most of my airspeed and stall, but I dont know how it is is the 737NG, but im pretty sure its a pretty bad idea to put more flaps at only ~200' AGL.

User currently offlineSxmarbury33 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9481 times:

Well im not a real 737 pilot either but yes it is bad teqniqe to put the flaps down on the runway. For a longer runway flap 5 is good but for a shorter one im pretty sure the 737 is certified for flap 10 and maybe 15. I know on the 767 its certified for flap 5 and 15. Also gear up when you see a positive rate on the VSI. And generally 400 feet is a little low to put the AP on and you should definitly wait longer for climb thrust. Most of the time that is ussually 1000agl or if noise abatment is in effect go with that. Also you can go 250 below ten not 230 unless told by atc or the SID. You could also use VNAV on the 737 which can help you with the climb and reduces your workload. During the flare 200 feet is way to high to cut the power and adding the final setting of the flaps will also increase your drag by a lot. You should be stabilized on the approach much sooner then in the flare. Flaring ussually begins between 50 to 30 feet.

User currently offlineSkystar From Australia, joined Jan 2000, 1363 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 9441 times:

~400knots IAS?

Are you joking!!! Maybe TAS, but never IAS - illegal! Vmo (max IAS) on the 737NG is 340kias.

I'm not sure about the flap procedures on the 738, but I suspect most carriers would use Flap 5 as a minimum (ie, 3 notches, otherwise 5 (Flap 15) for shorter runways). There is no such thing as Flap 7° on the 737.

On takeoff you should rotate at 3°/sec to a target attitude of 17-20° nose up - don't worry about the autopilot - aim for an initial climb speed of V2+10/15, and hold that attitude till 1000ft AGL (1500 for some airports). At that altitude, you can begin acceleration to clean climb speed & clean up the wing as you do so.

You should be configured for landing (ie gear down & landing flap 30/could use 40) by 4NM or so (roughly 1000ft AGL). In real life, if you initiated another stage of flap extension in the flare, you'd probably touch down before the flaps extend to the next stage.

Ask questions here, it's good - get it right instead of wrong  Smile

Cheers,

Justin


User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 9431 times:

Justin, thanx for the info. I meant TAS there. me real bad!  Laugh out loud

Isnt 3 notches of flap a little too much?

-Roy


User currently offlineBio15 From Colombia, joined Mar 2001, 1089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9395 times:

-No, three notches of flaps (5 degrees) is the most usual. The actual limitation speed below 10,000 ft is 250, not 230. Some aircraft such as the 747 may request clearance to higher airspeeds such as 280 kts below 10,000 to be able to fly on clean configuration. (no flaps)

-Some of the speeds you mention are printed information: the "increase 1 notch per 10 kts drop" is no rule of thumb, it's in the manual. There is also a lowering-landing-gear limitation speed, and a landing gear rotation speed limitation (wheel rotation). All this info is on the manual.

-You must take into account that sometimes you will be flying SIDs and STARs (Standard Instrument Departures/Standard Terminal Arrival Routes). These include procedures that require specific altitudes and some may require different speeds for holding patterns.

-In addition, you have the ATC factor. During approach, you may have to reduce your airspeed or increase it to cope with separation minima among aircraft (which is cotrolled by the ATC).

-Your last-second-notch-increase during the landing is not a known procedure. By flaring and the additional lift provided by the ground effect, you can always grease down your landings without the need of full flaps.

-During the takeoff roll, your V1 and Vr speeds are calculated speeds. These depend on your aircraft weight and runway length. A fair approximation of V1 under MTOW could be around 150 kts, not sure though. Your Vref (landing speed) also depends on the aircraft's weight. On the manual as well.

-The landing roll in not always the same. You may want to refrain from braking for a while if your closest taxiway exit is 3000 ft away, or use maximum braking on short runways. You may also taxi at higher speeds, and may need to taxi at lower speeds during turns and parking.

In conclusion, no two flights are ever the same. You will have the wind factor, the ATC factor, varying payload factor, different airports, different regulations, etc. I am hoping someone flying a NextGen could describe for us a more or less typical procedure. It will be a little different from yours, so take note!

regards
bio


User currently offlineBeefmoney From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1116 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9388 times:

Also, Isn't the first notch of flaps 1 degree? And I think that just extends some of the the slats and none of that flaps. So one notch of flaps is way to little if it just extends the slats, which I think it does.

User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 9337 times:

Thanx Bio15. Is the manual available anywhere in electronic form?

-Roy


User currently offlineBio15 From Colombia, joined Mar 2001, 1089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9307 times:

I browsed and found a good website. Unfortunately I didn't found info for the 737-800, but if you're just simming you can use the figures for the 737-400 found on this website.
You download PDFs describing the various systems of the aircraft. Check out the Limitations chapter, here you find the flap extension limitation speed tables.

If it interests you, check out the rest of the chapters. Nice info.
Hope it helps!

http://dreamfleet2000.com/Downloads/737_manuals_ops_2.html

-bio


User currently offlineBio15 From Colombia, joined Mar 2001, 1089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9265 times:

I have found another more reliable site: Boeing

It is more technical information including specs, probably not so relevant to your interest, but take a look.

http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/aircompat/737.htm

-bio


User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9244 times:

Thanx a zillion for that link Bio15! It was very informative.

The procdeure that i follow(that i gave above) was explained to me by a real pilot who is a member of my gliding club. The last notch of flap on flare was something i did to avoid bouncing on the runway. Whats the most preferred way of avoiding bounce?

Nowadays i have been trying to fly the whole flight with minimal use of the autopilot(except Altitude and Heading Hold). Must say that flying by changing the trim settings is pretty tough. How do you guys do it?

-ROy


User currently offlineSkystar From Australia, joined Jan 2000, 1363 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9236 times:

Flap 1 is no problem, there are a good handful of carriers who use Flap one for takeoff on some of the 737s. It improves second segment climb (ie, you climb better - less drag).

You can even use Flap 1 in a 767 (-200 normally though, haven't heard of anyone using it on the -300).

To avoid bouncing, you need to get the flare technique correct. You should aim to have a touchdown V/Speed of around 100fpm if not less. Really, it just feels about right, and the plane shouldn't bounce. You'd begin your flare somewhere around 20ft AGL (perhaps higher), and you should touchdown fine. Don't hold the nose up too long and then fall out of the sky & don't fly the plane into the ground.

Cheers,

Justin


User currently offlineGoboeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2699 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 9228 times:

Roy,
About the flying manually at cruise: flight simulator lacks in some real general but important parts of flying. You can learn to fly on instruments from it, but the characteristics of how the planes handle are not the same as in real life. The flight sim planes seem to do the "roller coaster effect": bob up and down but never really find the right speed and attitude to level out at. That's what real planes do better. You set the power and trim, and they will maintain a certain speed.

Nick/KPHL


User currently offlineMD11Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9211 times:

There are a couple of web sites that could be of help:

http://www.smartcockpit.com/

http://www.b737.org.uk/

Regards,
Nut





User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3474 posts, RR: 47
Reply 14, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9154 times:

>On descent, cut throttle to 30%, and set trim to descend at ~1800 fpm crossing FL200,
>after which reduce VSpeed to ~1500 fpm. IAS will reduce to ~300-320 knots crossing FL150.

All this varies with what you're trying to do and what ATC will permit you to do. My preference is to start descent early if possible to minimize the nose-down attitude (pax comfort).

>Use speed brakes to reduce speed to 230 knots. Set 1 notch of Flap. Fly pattern at 220 knots.

Again, everything varies. Currently -800 models have a 300kias max speedbrake limit until modified tail sections are installed (something about a -900 having encountered vibrations once). I keep the aircraft clean as long as possible and fly the visual pattern at whatever speed is permitted and convienient.

>Reduce speed further to 190 knots on turn to finals approx 12 nm out. Let aircraft decelerate
>normally, and Increase flap by one notch as speed drops by 10 knots.

I've never heard this 1 notch/10kias guidance. The -800 FMS provides minimum recommended speeds for different configurations in addition to the max speeds posted on a placard.

>Lower gear 4 nm out. Reduce VSpeed to ~750 fpm. Set throttle to ~35-40% which will give
>around 140 knots. Arm the spoilers ~2nm out.

Current FAA "preferred policy" is to have aircraft in final landing configuration prior to 1000'agl.

>...switch off autopilot 500 ft AGL.

If not earlier.  Wink/being sarcastic

>Cut throttle and flare slightly ~200 ft AGL.

Way too high. You've got to be way too fast in order to attempt a 200' flare height. If you're "on-speed" during your approach, you're only 5 knots above Vref. That goes away real fast.

>Increase one flap notch after cutting throttle to prevent sink.

Definitely not an airliner technique. What's this pilot friend actually fly?

>Touchdown at ~120-130 knots.

Touchdown speed can be anything from 115-150 depending upon weight.

>Thrust Rev. as reqd;

My preference is idle only (if possible).

>Brakes after 90 knots.

My preference is minimum required. AA recommends using autobrakes.

>Cut TR's as IAS <60 knots.

Dependent upon airline. AA procedure is to remain in reverse thrust until "taxi speed" (Captain gets to decide what that means).  Wink/being sarcastic

>Retract Spoilers and flaps, and taxi to stand @15 knots.

Speed as required.  Wink/being sarcastic

>Flap 1 is no problem, there are a good handful of carriers who use Flap one for takeoff on some of the 737s

AA policy is to perform Flaps-1 takeoffs whenever permitted.

>Whats the most preferred way of avoiding bounce?

Practice, practice, practice.

>Must say that flying by changing the trim settings is pretty tough. How do you guys do it?

Practice, practice, practice.  Wink/being sarcastic No, I can't fly pc-based flight sims. They're just not anywhere near realistic.

AAR90



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