Cmchardyfl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2002, 175 posts, RR: 1 Posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14295 times:
I was reading an article a friend showed me on the topic of automatic T/O and landing. It began talking about a pilot who was testing a stae of the art US Air Force aircraft, based on a similar design to a U2. On a laptop connected to the aircraft, he could sellect which features he would like to have done automatically. It was simply a case of using the mouse and clicking T/O for example.
Modern airliners, as we all know, have the capability of making auto lands. A captain for a major US carrier said that auto lands are a much more common occurance than passengers think. It can simply be a case of having plane fly automatically and land automatically. The article then started talking about the pilots experience in the cockpit, when it comes down to having to fly the plane manually, in the event that after a fully automated flight the pilot has to take over control.
I dont doubt a pilots experience in the cockpit at all, even though auto lands are now becoming more of a common occurance and I know there is a lot more to flying a jet than just auto pilot and auto land. I have a few questions though...
Do the most modern airliners have auto take offs?
As airlines and pilots are opting to use automated landing more often, are they losing valuble hands on experience?
How often do your airlines (pilots) recomend you use automated landings?
How many manual landings must you (pilots) make per month when the option of automated landing is available?
I have heard that Emirates like their pilots to use auto lands quite often but I dont know about other airlines.
Md88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1292 posts, RR: 22 Reply 2, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 14219 times:
Airplanes do not have the ability to "auto-takeoff". I have not done an autoland in over 2 years. Pilots don't like to do them. When a plane needs one for certification purposes (1 every 30 days) operations often has to beg to get a crew to do one. I always laugh at the notion that we do not touch the controls from takeoff to rollout.
Charliecossie From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 467 posts, RR: 10 Reply 7, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 13989 times:
A few airliners most certainly do have the ability to "auto takeoff".
Imagine two radio signals being transmitted from the runway and in line with it.
One simply marks the centre of the runway - the localiser.
The other rises from the end of the runway at an angle of, um, 3 degrees - the glideslope. These two are known as the Instrument Landing System.
The ILS frequency is tuned on the aircrafts' nav radios. The flight instruments have indicators for localiser and glideslope.
When the aircraft is approaching the runway, the localiser indicator in the cockpit shows when the aircraft is in line with the runway. At some point, the aircraft will meet the glideslope (rising at 3 degs) and then the glideslope indicator will display. The indicators are for the crew to use and monitor. The autopilot doesn't need them, of course, and simply flies the aircraft down on to the runway.
Modern aircraft and airports have a level of equipment fitted that allows autolands in weather conditions of almost zero visibility.
Delta737 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 516 posts, RR: 11 Reply 10, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 13970 times:
I've been flying jets since 1998 and I've only seen probably five autolands. And two of the five "failed" where we had to take control of the aircraft.
Personally, I HAAAAAAAAAAATE autolands because the autopilot flies the aircraft differently than a pilot does and it throws off your kinestetic cues.
I have to disagree with the captain that said autolands are very common.
Also, an autotakeoff airliner? Doubtful, besides, the most important part of the takeoff is making sure the aircraft is going to fly prior to V1. Also, I couldn't imagine an autopilot correctly handling a v1 cut.
Barney captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 762 posts, RR: 14 Reply 11, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 13941 times:
"......At some point, the aircraft will meet the glideslope (rising at 3 degs)"
The glideslope is at the approach end of the runway, not the departure end. Additionally, the glideslope ends at the 1000ft markers, on departure, this would be a bit late to start rotation. Sorry amigo, but "auto-takeoff" simply does not exist. Auto throttles are used for take-off, but not the auto-pilot.
Saintsman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 2065 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 13913 times:
I remember the story of the RAF Tristar that used autoland in 1985. The RAF had not long had the aircraft and the pilot was demonstrating the autoland capability. Unfortunately autoland was not fitted to that particular aircraft. The aircraft hit the ground so hard that it bounced, causing the pilot to go-around. It lost 6 tons of fuel in the circuit.
For political reasons, the aircraft was repaired at great cost to the taxpayer. The captain who was flying it was misteriously promoted and moved on.
Sudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4127 posts, RR: 6 Reply 14, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 13900 times:
This brings up another question in my head.
If the autolandsystem has CAT3 but the pilots "only" have CAT2 rating, can they use the autolandsystem when, for ex., there is heavy fog?
The reason I ask is that it ones happened when I lived in Sweden (GOT) and there is sometimes heavy fog. One airline had to divert due to that the pilots did not have the proper CAT rating to land. So if the A/C have the CAT required, could they the use autolandsystem them?
Charliecossie From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 467 posts, RR: 10 Reply 15, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13859 times:
My explanation was simplified for someone who knew nothing about autoland/ILS. In that respect, I was trying to paint a picture of the relationship between runway, loc and gs and it is correct.
Now, regarding the "ability" to "auto takeoff". Yes, this is fact. The A320, 330, 340 and B777 all have the "ability" in their software to "auto takeoff".
READ, what I wrote.
Saintsman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 2065 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 13819 times:
I'm not in a position to contradict you, though it was common knowledge at Brize Norton when I was there. The aircraft in question was ex PanAm if that make a difference.
As for using the glideslope for take off it would not work. The glideslope is designed to guide and aircraft to a fixed point so even with the backbeam it would be in the wrong position. The further the aircraft moved away from the transmitter, and down the runway, it would result in an increase in the demand for a fly up input. Without the aircraft responding (as it is still building up speed) the elevators would continue to move up and would probably cause an autopilot to disconnect. (If the autopilot does not receive a corresponding signal in opposition to a demand it will disconnect as it will sense/assume that something is wrong).
Jeff G From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 431 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13811 times:
I've never heard of an autotakeoff, and I'm qualified in the A320. What are you referring to? The autopilot can't be engaged until 5 seconds *after* takeoff or 100 ft, by limitation, so an "autotakeoff" is prohibited.
Cat II/III qualification is generally done at the same time, and is really more like autopilot familiarization than training to do a completely new procedure. Oh, the procedure is slightly different than normal, but not grossly so. So if the plane is rated for cat III ops, it's likely the crew is also. If for some reason the crew is not qualified, then that's the limiting factor. The autoland system isn't a "third pilot" with its own qualifications. It's just a function of the autopilot and can't supercede the qualifications and authority of the human crew. It's most certainly not a get out of jail free card for an unqualified crew.
Cx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6364 posts, RR: 56 Reply 21, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13758 times:
Charliecossie said that they have the "ability" to do auto take offs. Yes I agree, some tampering with the software and most modern jets could be programmed (I stress program...a 747 couldn't do many aerobatic manvouvres) to do almost anything, however, the standard line airliner with the standard line pilot cannot do an auto takeoff.
Md88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1292 posts, RR: 22 Reply 22, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13749 times:
>the standard line airliner with the standard line pilot cannot do an auto takeoff.< True, but that's not stating it strongly enough. No airliner anywhere is certified for "autotakeoffs". No airline pilot anywhere has done a part 121 "autotakeoff". The term "autotakeoff" does not exist in any MD, BA, AB flight manual. Autopilots generally cannot even be engaged on the ground.
Autotakeoffs DO NOT exist.
I take exception to saying that certain aircraft have the "ability" to "autotakeoff" because it gives the impression to many here that airliners have this "ability" that the pilots/airlines just choose not to use. Airliners just do not have "autotakeoff" capability.
Now I will concede that you can take just about any airplane and retrofit it to fly remotely like NASA/Military had done many times, but that's not what we are talking about.
Charliecossie From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 467 posts, RR: 10 Reply 24, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 13672 times:
Why so nasty? You're the one who said "airplanes do not have the ability to auto takeoff". Are you really a pilot? Are you insecure in your role as a "systems monitor"?
Fact: the A320 and B777 most certainly could take off with the push of a button or two. It's no big deal. I'm simply correcting you - some do have that ability. Do any of them do it? Not yet.
25 Jeff G: Charlie, The A320 does not have that ability. The FMGS locks out the autopilot until 5 seconds after wheels up. An aircraft limitation for autopilot u
26 Delta737: Charliecossie: Autotakeoff does NOT exist in any commercial aircraft whatsoever. And there probably will never be for a variety of reasons, but it doe
27 Md88Captain: I guess I get nasty when someone spouts such an obvious load of crap and keeps insisting they are correct. Autotakeoffs. What a stupid idea.
28 Md88Captain: I'm going to take back my nastiness on this thread. After all its just not that important and this is a nice forum which doesn't need invective posts.
29 JM017: Charliecossie: Thanks so much for your detailed response.
30 Cx flyboy: I think you are all still missing the point. Charlie said that the aircraft are capable of doing an auto-takeoff. I am sure he knows that current syst
31 Jetguy: The closest thing that you will ever see to an "auto-takeoff" is on the deck of an aircraft carrier launching FA-18s.
32 Ismangun: If I may speak, I guess those planes discussed, or probably many more not mentioned, may have the capability to autotakeoff, but PREVENTED in doing so
33 PPGMD: Well I can't talk for anyone on this but every pilots are diffrent. Some pilots like to take over from Ralph below 10,000ft. Some at 18,000 ft. While
34 Md11nut: MD88Captain, I agree with CxFlyboy on CharlieCossie's post. I think many of you (myself used to be included) do not carefully read the posts and jump