Cmchardyfl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2002, 175 posts, RR: 1 Posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14295 times:
Hi All,
I was reading an article a friend showed me on the topic of automatic T/O and landing. It began talking about a pilot who was testing a stae of the art US Air Force aircraft, based on a similar design to a U2. On a laptop connected to the aircraft, he could sellect which features he would like to have done automatically. It was simply a case of using the mouse and clicking T/O for example.
Modern airliners, as we all know, have the capability of making auto lands. A captain for a major US carrier said that auto lands are a much more common occurance than passengers think. It can simply be a case of having plane fly automatically and land automatically. The article then started talking about the pilots experience in the cockpit, when it comes down to having to fly the plane manually, in the event that after a fully automated flight the pilot has to take over control.
I dont doubt a pilots experience in the cockpit at all, even though auto lands are now becoming more of a common occurance and I know there is a lot more to flying a jet than just auto pilot and auto land. I have a few questions though...
Do the most modern airliners have auto take offs?
As airlines and pilots are opting to use automated landing more often, are they losing valuble hands on experience?
How often do your airlines (pilots) recomend you use automated landings?
How many manual landings must you (pilots) make per month when the option of automated landing is available?
I have heard that Emirates like their pilots to use auto lands quite often but I dont know about other airlines.
Airmale From Botswana, joined Sep 2004, 369 posts, RR: 2 Reply 1, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 14226 times:
I read in TIME magazine a long time back that a stewardess once walked in on all the pilots and flight engineer on a 747 fast asleep, the airline was TWA.
Md88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1292 posts, RR: 22 Reply 2, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 14219 times:
Airplanes do not have the ability to "auto-takeoff". I have not done an autoland in over 2 years. Pilots don't like to do them. When a plane needs one for certification purposes (1 every 30 days) operations often has to beg to get a crew to do one. I always laugh at the notion that we do not touch the controls from takeoff to rollout.
Hmflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 83 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 14170 times:
I have been flying 737s for a major US airline for 4 years and have done 3 autolands. The vast majority of landings are done by the pilots.
JETPILOT From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3130 posts, RR: 32 Reply 5, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 14066 times:
For auto land the auto pilot captures the glideslope and localizer and follows it down.
Much in the same way the auto pilot navigates V or J routes but with an additional vertical component.
AA717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 14 Reply 6, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 14012 times:
If you're on an A320/330/340, the pilots never really fly--they just make suggestions to the autopilot... TC
Charliecossie From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 467 posts, RR: 10 Reply 7, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 13989 times:
A few airliners most certainly do have the ability to "auto takeoff".
JM017:
Imagine two radio signals being transmitted from the runway and in line with it.
One simply marks the centre of the runway - the localiser.
The other rises from the end of the runway at an angle of, um, 3 degrees - the glideslope. These two are known as the Instrument Landing System.
The ILS frequency is tuned on the aircrafts' nav radios. The flight instruments have indicators for localiser and glideslope.
When the aircraft is approaching the runway, the localiser indicator in the cockpit shows when the aircraft is in line with the runway. At some point, the aircraft will meet the glideslope (rising at 3 degs) and then the glideslope indicator will display. The indicators are for the crew to use and monitor. The autopilot doesn't need them, of course, and simply flies the aircraft down on to the runway.
Modern aircraft and airports have a level of equipment fitted that allows autolands in weather conditions of almost zero visibility.
Cx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6364 posts, RR: 56 Reply 9, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 13977 times:
The autoland on the 777 will land nicer than most pilots can do it!!! 50kt crosswind with an engine out on the critical side on a slippery runway....no problem!! It's quite depressing really.
Delta737 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 516 posts, RR: 11 Reply 10, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 13970 times:
I've been flying jets since 1998 and I've only seen probably five autolands. And two of the five "failed" where we had to take control of the aircraft.
Personally, I HAAAAAAAAAAATE autolands because the autopilot flies the aircraft differently than a pilot does and it throws off your kinestetic cues.
I have to disagree with the captain that said autolands are very common.
Also, an autotakeoff airliner? Doubtful, besides, the most important part of the takeoff is making sure the aircraft is going to fly prior to V1. Also, I couldn't imagine an autopilot correctly handling a v1 cut.
Barney captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 762 posts, RR: 14 Reply 11, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 13941 times:
"......At some point, the aircraft will meet the glideslope (rising at 3 degs)"
Huh?
The glideslope is at the approach end of the runway, not the departure end. Additionally, the glideslope ends at the 1000ft markers, on departure, this would be a bit late to start rotation. Sorry amigo, but "auto-takeoff" simply does not exist. Auto throttles are used for take-off, but not the auto-pilot.
Saintsman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 2065 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 13913 times:
I remember the story of the RAF Tristar that used autoland in 1985. The RAF had not long had the aircraft and the pilot was demonstrating the autoland capability. Unfortunately autoland was not fitted to that particular aircraft. The aircraft hit the ground so hard that it bounced, causing the pilot to go-around. It lost 6 tons of fuel in the circuit.
For political reasons, the aircraft was repaired at great cost to the taxpayer. The captain who was flying it was misteriously promoted and moved on.
SAS23 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 13911 times:
Saintsman, sounds like urban legend as all L1011s are fitted with Cat 3C Autol;and capability! The BA ones were also fitted with GRM and PVDs which allow low visibility takeoffs as well.
Sudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4127 posts, RR: 6 Reply 14, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 13900 times:
This brings up another question in my head.
If the autolandsystem has CAT3 but the pilots "only" have CAT2 rating, can they use the autolandsystem when, for ex., there is heavy fog?
The reason I ask is that it ones happened when I lived in Sweden (GOT) and there is sometimes heavy fog. One airline had to divert due to that the pilots did not have the proper CAT rating to land. So if the A/C have the CAT required, could they the use autolandsystem them?
Charliecossie From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 467 posts, RR: 10 Reply 15, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13859 times:
Barney captain:
My explanation was simplified for someone who knew nothing about autoland/ILS. In that respect, I was trying to paint a picture of the relationship between runway, loc and gs and it is correct.
Now, regarding the "ability" to "auto takeoff". Yes, this is fact. The A320, 330, 340 and B777 all have the "ability" in their software to "auto takeoff".
READ, what I wrote.
Md88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1292 posts, RR: 22 Reply 16, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 13849 times:
Charlie. I did read what you wrote. And its a load of crap. There is no auto-takeoff.
Saintsman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 2065 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 13819 times:
SAS23,
I'm not in a position to contradict you, though it was common knowledge at Brize Norton when I was there. The aircraft in question was ex PanAm if that make a difference.
As for using the glideslope for take off it would not work. The glideslope is designed to guide and aircraft to a fixed point so even with the backbeam it would be in the wrong position. The further the aircraft moved away from the transmitter, and down the runway, it would result in an increase in the demand for a fly up input. Without the aircraft responding (as it is still building up speed) the elevators would continue to move up and would probably cause an autopilot to disconnect. (If the autopilot does not receive a corresponding signal in opposition to a demand it will disconnect as it will sense/assume that something is wrong).
Jeff G From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 431 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13811 times:
Charlie,
I've never heard of an autotakeoff, and I'm qualified in the A320. What are you referring to? The autopilot can't be engaged until 5 seconds *after* takeoff or 100 ft, by limitation, so an "autotakeoff" is prohibited.
Sudden,
Cat II/III qualification is generally done at the same time, and is really more like autopilot familiarization than training to do a completely new procedure. Oh, the procedure is slightly different than normal, but not grossly so. So if the plane is rated for cat III ops, it's likely the crew is also. If for some reason the crew is not qualified, then that's the limiting factor. The autoland system isn't a "third pilot" with its own qualifications. It's just a function of the autopilot and can't supercede the qualifications and authority of the human crew. It's most certainly not a get out of jail free card for an unqualified crew.
Cx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6364 posts, RR: 56 Reply 21, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13758 times:
Charliecossie said that they have the "ability" to do auto take offs. Yes I agree, some tampering with the software and most modern jets could be programmed (I stress program...a 747 couldn't do many aerobatic manvouvres) to do almost anything, however, the standard line airliner with the standard line pilot cannot do an auto takeoff.
Md88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1292 posts, RR: 22 Reply 22, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13749 times:
>the standard line airliner with the standard line pilot cannot do an auto takeoff.< True, but that's not stating it strongly enough. No airliner anywhere is certified for "autotakeoffs". No airline pilot anywhere has done a part 121 "autotakeoff". The term "autotakeoff" does not exist in any MD, BA, AB flight manual. Autopilots generally cannot even be engaged on the ground.
Autotakeoffs DO NOT exist.
I take exception to saying that certain aircraft have the "ability" to "autotakeoff" because it gives the impression to many here that airliners have this "ability" that the pilots/airlines just choose not to use. Airliners just do not have "autotakeoff" capability.
Now I will concede that you can take just about any airplane and retrofit it to fly remotely like NASA/Military had done many times, but that's not what we are talking about.
Foxhunter From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 59 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13741 times:
Charliecossie From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 467 posts, RR: 10 Reply 24, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 13672 times:
Cx flyboy:
Thank you.
md88captain:
Why so nasty? You're the one who said "airplanes do not have the ability to auto takeoff". Are you really a pilot? Are you insecure in your role as a "systems monitor"?
Fact: the A320 and B777 most certainly could take off with the push of a button or two. It's no big deal. I'm simply correcting you - some do have that ability. Do any of them do it? Not yet.
25 Jeff G: Charlie, The A320 does not have that ability. The FMGS locks out the autopilot until 5 seconds after wheels up. An aircraft limitation for autopilot u
26 Delta737: Charliecossie: Autotakeoff does NOT exist in any commercial aircraft whatsoever. And there probably will never be for a variety of reasons, but it doe
27 Md88Captain: I guess I get nasty when someone spouts such an obvious load of crap and keeps insisting they are correct. Autotakeoffs. What a stupid idea.
28 Md88Captain: I'm going to take back my nastiness on this thread. After all its just not that important and this is a nice forum which doesn't need invective posts.
29 JM017: Charliecossie: Thanks so much for your detailed response.
30 Cx flyboy: I think you are all still missing the point. Charlie said that the aircraft are capable of doing an auto-takeoff. I am sure he knows that current syst
31 Jetguy: The closest thing that you will ever see to an "auto-takeoff" is on the deck of an aircraft carrier launching FA-18s.
32 Ismangun: If I may speak, I guess those planes discussed, or probably many more not mentioned, may have the capability to autotakeoff, but PREVENTED in doing so
33 PPGMD: Well I can't talk for anyone on this but every pilots are diffrent. Some pilots like to take over from Ralph below 10,000ft. Some at 18,000 ft. While
34 Md11nut: MD88Captain, I agree with CxFlyboy on CharlieCossie's post. I think many of you (myself used to be included) do not carefully read the posts and jump
36 Sxmarbury33: Ok how would you be able to make the autopilot rotate at VR if it cant be activated till airbourne. Also isnt the LOC ROLLOUT command only availible a
37 Jetguy: The action on this forum has definitely slowed down the past couple of days. When I logged on there had only been 40-something posts during the previo
38 EssentialPowr: In the spirit of providing a referee input that I have requested so often, I agree completely with BarneyCaptain/Md88captain and others. Sure the tech
39 Ben88: Autolands are rare, but that isn't to say that the autopilot does most of the flying. I'd say on a typical longhaul flight the pilot probably actually
40 Wingscrubber: Air International magazine, July 2002 edition, page 60. 'Joe cook argues that advances in technology applied to commercial airliners will result in pi
41 FDXmech: 'Joe cook argues that advances in technology applied to commercial airliners will result in pilots of the future becoming not so much 'aviators' as 'f
42 TT737FO: >>>"The closest thing that you will ever see to an "auto-takeoff" is on the deck of an aircraft carrier launching FA-18s." Yeah. My achin ass.
43 PPGMD: TT737FO actually the takeoffs are automated for the Hornet. Now these days we don't fly the sticken plane, that just gets in the way of driken. Start
44 Cx flyboy: Why would you need the glideslope to do an auto-departure? We don't use the glideslope indications to do a manual departure. Surely if anyone was stup
45 B747skipper: The original question was "how often" pilots fly the airplanes bla bla... In the 747 I fly, we use "auto-throttles" in say, about 50% of our takeoffs.
46 Metalbird: Dear forum members, I would like to share with you some of my engineering background... Altought it´s not allowed to make a automatic takeoff, the t
47 Jeff G: The discussion appears to have deteriorated to the point that we're arguing over whether such a thing is possible. The original assertion is that it w
48 FDXmech: Jeff G Anything is possible, but the real question is whether it's a good idea. No, it's not. There's no point to it. Exactly, what would be the point
49 Wing: I am flying Boeing 737-400800 series aircraft for nearly two years now and I have never herad anything called "auto takeoff" in the aircraft manuals
50 EssentialPowr: Metalbird, With regard to your engineering background, is that by title or by degree? A radar altimeter provides altitude info via, effectively, a pen
51 AIRNZsaab340: Why the hell would there be any point in doing an auto takeoff. Whats the point. Is it going to help any. Why can't the pilots just do the takeoff. Ry
52 Saab2000: The posts here which make the most sense are those which have been posted by the actual airline pilots - MD88Captain, Delta737, B747Skipper, CXFlyboy,
53 MetalBird: Dear EssentialPowr, I am a telecommunications engineer by degree, since 1998.... If you had read "carefully" my post, I said that the Radar Altimeter
54 SailorOrion: "The autoland on the 777 will land nicer than most pilots can do it!!! 50kt crosswind with an engine out on the critical side on a slippery runway....
55 Saab2000: I tend to believe the 50 kts crosswind in the 777 though I do not have the manuals. My airplane has a "demonstrated crosswind component of 45 knots an
56 Rick767: Max autoland x-wind component on a 757/767 is 25 knots (also max headwind is 25 knots and max tailwind is 10 knots). If the RVR is < 100m our company
57 XFSUgimpLB41X: My question is: how often are you really going to get a 50 knot crosswind component?? I believe the person said it best who said that even with the au
58 EssentialPowr: Metalbird, An approximate comparison to your suggestion of using the RA for vertical or lateral guidance is equivalent to trying to drive a car while
59 MetalBird: EssentialPowr, In case of a engine malfunction in the takeoff or just after takeoff the pilots should take control of the airplane, (this auto takeoff
60 Cx flyboy: Our company crosswind limit is 38kts, and I believe that it is 45 from the Boeing, and apparently it is only 45 because that is the strongest crosswin
61 EssentialPowr: Metalbird, What case? That your supposed hypothetical, ILS and RA based auto takeoff system is bunk? You omitted the most basic of prohibiting factors
62 EssentialPowr: Sorry... "supposed" and "hypothetical" are overly extra redundant...eliminate one, reader's choice... cheers-
63 EssentialPowr: One other point - there is obviously a significant difference b/t a "remotely piloted" a/c and an "autonomous" one. "Auto takeoff" tends toward the au
64 Wing: I think we have enough technology to fly aircraft without pilots either with computer programs or remote controlling from a center.This is done since
66 AIRNZsaab340: You go wing. Nice reply. I'm sick of people when I say I want to be a pilot saying that would be easy just put the auto pilot on and go to sleep. But
67 FSPilot747: I used to think Autoland was performed a lot myself...but as many mentioned above..its not. Even in the Airbus's equipped with full FBW. I have a frie
68 B747skipper: This topic in the forum - with 67 entries - is going out of control... I engage the autopilot in cruise... And I am "REALLY" flying the airplane "AT A
69 ElDanno: Of course, fatalities are much more likely on these flights than on human controlled flights..
70 Goldenshield: Way to revive a 6 1/2 year dead thread with some members that are no longer here to reply! By the way, anyone heard from Skipper lately? I'm not too s
71 Starlionblue: I would like to say that pilots fly the plane all the time, with varying degrees of automation. Nope. I miss him though.
72 BMI727: The pilot is still very much in control of the plane even when the autopilot is engaged. I should think that one factor that would make an auto-takeof
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