B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4863 times:
Mentioning a list "electrical - fuel - hydraulic - pneumatic" systems does not make any sense, that covers basically 90% of all systems... maybe... the toilet flush is not included...
Has it occured to you, that the overhaul, or repair facility for these items had a different shade of "blueish grey" paint to spray on this panels before they installed them in that aircraft...?
Never heard of the justification "systems affected by engine failure", never...
Or maybe was it too simple logic for the rocket scientists hereby present...
LMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4828 times:
What does "electrical, fuel, hydraulic and pneumatic" not make sense to you? On a 737 overhead there are approximately 13 other panels. That means there are 9 panels that are not colored grey. What systems on the overhead are needed to fly the aircraft? Electrical, fuel, hydraulic and pneumatic.
An overhaul or repair facility painting these panels themselves? Sorry, Boeing delivers the 737 this way. You never heard of "systems affected by engine failure". Guess what happens when you pull the fire handle on an engine. You shut off fuel going to the engine and electrical, pneumatics and hydraulics coming from the engine.
B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4807 times:
Dear LMP737 -
The engine shutdown with fire handle has effect - like you say, on
(1) fuel shutoff valve to that engine -
(2) generator breaker, and generator field relay -
(3) bleed air valves shutoff from that engine -
(4) engine driven hydraulic pump shut off valve -
(5) arms fire extinguisher(s) to that engine...
These are merely a few switches and I dont see the necessity to "identify" an entire panel, i.e. fuel panel - to verify that fuel valve switch closed... merely one switch on that panel...
Besides a line 747 captain, I am the pilot training manager with my airline, and receive tons of publications from Boeing... realize also I am ex-PanAm pilot and I keep in touch with many airlines in the U.S. and with their training management... we pass each other "trade secrets" for the sake of improving flight safety, procedures and training... your story, I have never heard, about painting panels this way, we have fleet of 737s, none of them have panel "painted" in different colors with the idea of identifying them, and if there is a color difference on some of the panels, is because the supplier sent us that panel with a slightly different color. I see various shades of grey, or black panels, but no consistency as to the color in the various airplanes... as an aviation technician, you are obsviouly aware that "each airline" wants their airplanes "their way" (because "they" are smarter than the other ailines)...
I rest my case... now will follow the eternal list of postings "well in MY airline, we paint them this way..." bla bla...
LMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4823 times:
So basically what you are saying is that if you have never heard of something then it can't be true. You obviously have never taken a close look at the overhead panel on a 737. If you had you would have seen that the fuel, electrical, hydraulic and pneumatic panels are colored a lighter shade of grey. This is not a case of one airline wanting their planes "their way" or an airline painting various panels on their own. It's a case of Boeing delivering them that way. The fuel, electrical, hydraulic and pneumatic panel on a 737-300 is the same shade of grey as on a 737-800.
If you still doubt me look up 737 cockpits on this site. Then you will see for yourself.
B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4791 times:
The 737 chief pilot told me no... The VP Maintenance told me never heard of it either... We have a large fleet of 737s, the 287 delivered to us from Boeing and a lot of 236 coming second hand from British, and a few more from other sources, they all have quite a different cockpit as far as location of switches, panels etc... and of course we sometimes mix and match parts, when repairs or replacement are needed, so now we have a mix of all sources...
If you imagine that "all 737s" are exactly the same, you are dreaming... We have to give "differences training" 4 hours classroom course to the pilots each time we get an airplane from other source, and print many pages of revisions for manuals.
When you order directly from Boeing, you specify what you want as your aircraft options... when you get an airplane from another source you get whatever that airline did order as equipment...
Our 737s have 3 types of engines... all JT8Ds, -9, -15 or -17... I shall not say you cannot have JT8D-7s on the ones you work on... just because we do not have them in our fleet...
LMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4771 times:
Let's make sure we are on the same page here.
1)What you are saying is that your 737 chief pilot and VP of maintenance have never heard of a 737 with the fuel, electrical, hydraulic and pneumatic panel colored a lighter shade of grey?
2)Or that they are colored this way so as to make identification easier.
3)Or that they have never heard of the panels being colored this way as to identify systems that are affected when you pull the fire handle? Actually I hadn't heard of this until Cdfmxtech mentioned it. However this does not mean that it's not true. My understanding was that Boeing made the 737 this way as to make it easier for the crews to pick out these essential systems quicker.
I never said that every 737 is exactly alike, as a former Boeing employee I'm well aware of options. However certain thing are going to be the same no matter who the customer is. The general layout of the overhead and displays for example.
P.S. My airline does not have and 737-200. By the way which airline do you work for?
Murf From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 115 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4746 times:
Another thought I had, as much time as pilots spend in the cockpit I would have thought that they would know where evey switch on every panel is at.
Basically what I'm asking is that if you blindfold a pilot, would you be able to find every switch (or do your pre flight checks) as quick, or nearly as quick as with your vision?
Duncan From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 131 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4753 times:
Excuse me for asking a dumb question, but I've always been taught that the most stupid question is the one never asked...
If the panels are coloured differently to identify the systems affected by pulling the fire handle and this is (according to LMP737) is used on ALL 737's, then why isn't this methodology and identification scheme incorporated on other Boeing models?????
B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4735 times:
Dear LMP737 -
If the idea of "lighter colored" panels to identify such panels was such a good idea, about 1/3 of the overhead panel and 2/3 of the flight engineer's panel of the my 747s would require a different shade... that would defeat the purpose...
Obviously you read the posting from Murf and Duncan... as to denying that the original intent of different color panels is, as intially stated by Cdfmextech, it must be an option that was offered and maybe one little air carrier or two did request it... I often ride with my airline's 737s, and visit the pilots in cruise, or other airlines as well, just to be social... we "talk shop" often, and when I see a feature that I am not familiar with, I educate myself as to the purpose of that equipment or the way they use it... In our 747 we have many 737 crewmembers visiting our cockpits, they also ask us questions but they dont ask us "where in hell are your light colored panels" to us...
Murf, right on, we have to "basically" know where all the switches are, not really "blinfolded", but have a pretty good idea as to where they are. In the engine fire, severe damage or separation check list, the pilot flying the aircraft calls for this "appropriate" check list, the pilot not flying and the flight engineer will initiate the actions, carefully identify the thrust levers, switches and controls slowly and carefully, and "verify" each other's action, one with the check list on his lap... we are not the "Goddess Siva" with 8 arms and even such an emergency check list is not a "speed contest"... too many "good engines" have been shut down by overenthusiastic crews who want to play Speedy Gonzales games...
The other problem, Murf, is that as I stated before, all airplanes even of the same type are equipped differently, as an example we have 3 channel autopilots on our passenger airplanes and 2 channels on our cargo plane... On our passenger planes on the overhead panel switches are "ON" towards the "aft" position, but on our cargo plane, they are "ON" when "forward"... a habit is turning my "landing lights OFF" by mistake in the cargo plane when I want to select them "ON", and all our pilots have that problem...
The problem with some writing postings in this forum is that one feature they observed in one particular airplane is assumed to be the same way on all other planes of that type... It is NOT... when we lease an airplane from another airline, a joke we often say is "where in hell are these switches", then when we find them, read carefully which position is ON or OFF...
Engine fire procedure has effect on the "fuel system"... correct statement... So just because of that, in our 747s, we should paint the fuel panel, at the bottom of the F/E panel in lighter color... maybe a good idea... but then, of the 30 or so switches on THAT fuel panel, ONLY one single switch needs to be cross-checked in the procedure... why paint the entire panel... when only one little specific switch is of any concern...?
All airlines, the manufacturers, the operations and maintenance departments, the training departments are constantly communicating with each other, even if they are in "competition" with each other... flight safety is the primary concern... believe me, I know about outstanding suggestions, changes or recommendations within hours, and if need be I will go knock on the door of a VP, or find him at the tavern to have a beer and bend his ear, after office hours, or call him home, if needed, late evenings or on weekends... I have many years in this career, I was not born yesterday... I dont know everything but I sure know where to get informations...
Happy landings (s) Skipper
Cdfmxtech From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1338 posts, RR: 29 Reply 15, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4719 times:
The B737 overhead panel is different than every other Boeing (B727, B747, B757, B767, B777. The B727s and B747 with FE Panels don't have many (if any controls of Hydraulics, Pneumatics, Fuel and Electrics from the overhead panel.
The B737 flightdeck has never had a flight engineer nor has it had EICAS. So it easy to see why they would have those panels standout. The flightcrews during an engine shutdown with the fire handle would be more concerned with the engine actually shutting down than whether the hydraulics are off. It's just a reminder to them which systems are affected by the fire handle being pulled.
You have the FE on the B727s & B747s Classics to give that info, and EICAS on the B757, B767 and B777 to give that info without looking up.
That being said, I don't know if is an option for the panels of lighter shades on the B737. But I've seen a sh*tload of B737s and the all have had that config.
Wilcharl From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1158 posts, RR: 3 Reply 16, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4709 times:
Am i the only one in here that noticed that around the lettering on those panels you can see where the origonal white on dark grey lettering was taped over, as if it was origonalyt the dark grey, masked and pained with the lighter grey. you can clearly see the panel when manufactured and the letters stamped and painted at the factory, it was the dark boeing grey. it is apparen to me that at some time mx masked off the letters as not to have to reapply them and painted the panels... no big deal
B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4702 times:
Well gentlemen - the 737...
Originally, with UAL, and possibly some other airlines was operated (in the 1970s) with a 3 men crew, captain, first officer, second officer... the second officer sat on the folding jump seat... they somehow participated in check-lists in the cockpit, and they did the "walkaround" exterior inspection with, as appropriate, an umbrella, or an arctic parka as clothing...
In present days, long range - long duty hours international flying, a "3rd body" and hopefully, body equipped with minimum aviation IQ brains is part of the crew, with these two-men crews, 757, 767, 777, A310 and A330s... pardon me ladies, in wriring "men", I respect the pilots with lipstick as well.
With my country's regulations, we place a "3rd - person" in the cockpit when duty exceeds 10 hours... our first officers are always captain qualified...
B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4690 times:
Thanks Duncan - copy LMP737 -
My blood pressure was getting high and I am victim of early alzheimer symptoms, maybe...
I try to help everyone to be informed about facts... but some say "YES but NO NO"... there is no such thing as NO NO with these airlines...
We have a few planes with "black panels"... I wish I took the picture and post it here... maybe they have "dark black" and "light black" as well... I wish I could find one with pink color panels, as well... this forum became almost like a soap opera here
Muchas gracias amigo
LMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4660 times:
I find it curious that you said "The problem with some writings in this forum is that one feature they observed in one particular airplane is assumed to be the same way on all other planes of that type...It is NOT..." You're guilty of the very thing you accuse others of. At least that's the impression I get reading you're posts. My impression is that if you have never heard or seen something then it can't be true. Are you type rated on the 737, do you work on the 737?
I guess what set me off was you're snide remarks about the "rocket scietists on this board". I'm sorry I did not realize that I was in the presence of genius. Did you look up the overhead panels of 737 on this site? Maybe if you told me what airline you worked for I could look up pictures of your 737 cockpits to see for myself. If your want to know my employer, I work for AA.
B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4651 times:
As much as your real name and email address is withheld for privacy reasons, I unfortunately do the same, not for privacy. Once in the past, in another aviation forum, my name, email, home phone number and airline management position became known, and within weeks my email got absolutely assailed by resumes and requests from aspiring pilots and my phone rang, even in the middle of the night... forcing me to change email and phone numbers...
I spend my time in this forum, often with my laptop, from hotels when I am on layovers, to make friends, to help and inform aviation enthusiasts and pilots of details, that may be of interest to them...
When I write a post in this forum, I attempt to write in function of the person who asks the question... A 15 years old enthusiast, or an equivalent question by an airline first officer, my answer is worded differently... If someone makes a "smart" or "snotty" remark, I will treat that person equally.
Ex-USAF pilot (KC-135) I was a PanAm pilot from 1969 until the end in 1991, then flew for Cargolux in 1992, and I am in South America since 1993 and will remain here, after retirement, no desire to come back to USA... I am a captain on 747 since 1986, pilot instructor as well, previously was captain on 707, 727 and DC8s... I have a wealth of knowledge in international flight experience to pass along. I even own a little ex-Army L-21C Super Cub and donate my time and airplane to young kids to teach them to fly...
When I welcome passengers on board, I do not say "Welcome Folks" like they do with your airline, here the rule is "Welcome, Ladies and Gentlemen"... treat people with respect, they will respect you in turn... same in this forum...
Skwpilot From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 60 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4642 times:
I'm curious, what is with the attitude here. Pilots bashing other pilot's airlines and arguing over the paint color on the overhead panel of my beloved airplane! People have differing opinions, and we should respect that (I think I learned that in a CRM class once). Like Skipper said, this site is about educating folks (I'm sorry, "Ladies and Gentlemen") about airplanes. Now Skipper is also right that every 737 (or other airliner for that matter) is made somewhat custom. The basic systems are generally very similar, be some have Aux Fuel Tanks, others have gravel kits installed with completely different landing gear limitations. However, every 737 I have ever flown (200,300,500,700) and standard simulators have the configuration with light grey panels around Fuel, Electric, Hydraulic and Pneumatic systems. This has also been true during (pre-911) jumpseat observations with just about every major US carrier. In type school, it was specifically explained (as LMP737 also stated) that Boeing does this as a standard rule when they produce a 737. This helps a pilot in a dark, smoky, chaotic cockpit to identify the systems (with a flashlight possibly, if there have been multiple electrical failures) which are either affected or will require reconfiguration after an engine shutdown. I do not doubt that the machines at Skipper's airline are painted differently, so my observation does not apply everywhere, however it does appear to be the prevailing "norm" in my experience. As Wilcharl noticed, on the light colored panels, the labels which are white (for backlighting purposes) have the dark borders around them. This (as with everything else here) is just an opinion, but I believe that they are bordered this way because the white lettering would be almost invisible against the light grey. I have never closely inspected the paint job on the overhead panel, but now I am curious to see if it is indeed an overpainted panel. I'll be back next week....
Brons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2969 posts, RR: 5 Reply 23, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4601 times:
If you have -287's that you got new, you must work for Aerolineas Argentinas.
LMP737: I'm not sure what you're trying to do here with your points against B747Skipper, but you are coming across as the agressor, in my humble opinion. I find Skipper's posts to be very interesting in general, and not at all of a "holier than thou" tone, even though he is a chief 747 pilot with many years experience.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (10 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4609 times:
Correct Brons2 -
87 identifies my airline's customer number from Boeing, absolutely correct, but you see, only knowledgeable people, like yourself would know that...
The origin of this little "war" was based on the fact that I tried to explain that all airlines have a tendency to do things a little differently, and what one does the other will not do... more than any airline - here, we stick to "verbatum" Boeing procedures and manuals, we dont try to re-invent the wheel... when I was with PanAm, that airline did re-write all aircraft manuals their way as if that airline had designed the 707, 727, 737 or 747s theirselves... I even asked our VP Maintenance about "different shade of grey" for panels, he told me that they use whatever paint they have in stock... and that they often trade components from one airplane with another after repair or overhaul. If the panel is blue, green or yellow, does not matter as long as it works, right...?
What makes me sad is that I try to inform people, pilots or enthusiasts here, we all love airplanes, for some is a hobby, for me because of my job of being in them and still liking them... I first flew at age 14, now I am an 58 of age old fart, but I think I learned just a few things with 44 years of aviation... My best student is my son, just turned 13 last week, he already has 100 hours of dual pilot instruction with me, and I am trying to get a one time waiver to permit him to solo one time at his age... he reads aviation books and aircraft manuals rather than comic books.
Thank you for your post Brons2
25 LMP737: Brons2: When I made my first post on this thread B747skipper made the reference about "rocket scientists". Don't know about you but I took that as an
26 Wilcharl: i wish i had some photos of FL's DC-9 cockpits where the puke green colored panels were repainted lt. grey on the previous delta aircraft, and the THY