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Regulation Against Guns In The Cockpit  
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2085 times:

Can someone refer me to the specific regulation which presently prohibits pilots from carrying guns in the cockpit?


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineShaun3000 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2068 times:

Nothing prohibits pilots carrying guns in the cockpit. The regulation prohibits firearms (or other dangerous items) from being carried in an airplane. I think that reg only affects commercial aviation. I am pretty sure that Joe Schmoe can take his deer rifle up with him in his own 172 when he's flying him and his buddies to go hunting.

User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2059 times:

There are various regulations prohibiting carriage of firearms with commercial airlines, under 14 CFR 121... further restricted by each airline's own general operations manual and policies... with general aviation, you can carry an AK47 loaded and ready to fire, to pratice touch and goes with your Piper Cub. I assume it is part of the minimum equipment list in USA...
(s) Skipper


User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2054 times:

you can carry an AK47 loaded and ready to fire, to pratice touch and goes with your Piper Cub - I'm ashamed that my joke goes this low - but wouldn't that be called fly-by shooting?

About having guns in the cockpit of commercial jetliners, I'm a bit to either side. I can, of course, see why the pilots feel that they need a gun to defend themselves, BUT, the consequences of having a gun in the cockpit can be that IF the gun is used, the skin of the aircraft could be penetrated if the gun is accidentally fired during a fight.


User currently offlineSaintsman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 2065 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2053 times:

Guns in the cockpit reminded me of this old story.

[CASA is the Australian 'CAA']

On the phone Ron seemed like a reasonable sort of bloke. He reminded me of the need to do a flight review every two years. He even offered to drive out to look over my property and let me operate from my own ALA.

Naturally I agreed to that.

Anyway, Ron turned up last Wednesday. He said he was surprised to see the aircraft outside the homestead as the ALA was about a mile away. I explained that being close this strip was more convenient. Actually there are power lines across it at the half way mark but it is really no problem because at the half way point you are always on the ground. For some reason Ron seemed nervous.

So although I had done the pre flight inspection only four days earlier, I decided to do it again. Because he was watching me closely I walked around the plane three times instead of my usual two. My effort was rewarded as the colour returned to Ron's cheeks, in fact they went bright red.

In view of Ron's obviously better mood I told him I was going to combine the test with my requirement to move three poddy calves from the home paddock to the main herd.
After a bit of a chase I caught the poddy calves and threw them in the back.

We climbed aboard and Ron started nagging about weight and balance calculation. Of course I knew that was a waste of time as the stock like to move around a bit. However I did reassure Ron that I keep the trim wheel Araldited in the neutral position so we would always remain stable.

Anyway, I started the engine and cleverly minimised warm up time by tramping on the brakes and gunning her to 2500 RPM. I then discovered that Ron has very acute hearing. Through all that noise he detected a metallic rattle and demanded that I account for it.

Actually it began last month and was caused by a screwdriver that fell down into the fuel selector mechanism through a hole in the floor.It jammed the selector but as it was on ALL TANKS I figured it didn't matter. However Ron was obviously a nit picker, I blamed the noise on vibration from a stainless steel thermos I keep in a beaut little possie between the windscreen and the Magnetic compass.

My explanation seemed to relax Ron as he slumped back in the seat and looked at the cockpit roof. I released the brakes to taxi out but unfortunately the plane gave a leap
forward and spun to the right, Hell I thought, not the starboard wheel chock again. The bump jolted Ron into full alertness. He looked wildly around just in time to see a rock thrown by the propwash disappear through the windscreen of his new Commodore.

While Ron was busy ranting about his car, I ignored his requirement that we taxi to the ALA and instead took off under the powerlines.Ron did not say a word at least not until the engine coughed at lift off, then he screamed OH GOD.

"Now take it easy" I told him firmly, " that often happens and there is a very good reason for it." I explained patiently that I usually run the plane on standard Mogas but
one day I accidentally put a few gallons of kerosene in .To compensate for the low octane of the kero I siphoned a few gallons of Super Mogas in and shook the wings up and down a few times to mix it in. Since then the engine has been coughing a bit but in general it works fine.

At this stage Ron seemed to lose all interest in the test. He pulled out some rosary beads,closed his eyes and became lost in prayer.I selected some nice music on the ADF to help him relax. Meanwhile I climbed to my usual NoSAR No Details cruising altitude of 10500 feet.

On levelling out I noticed some wild camels heading into my improved pasture, I hate camels and always carry a loaded .303 rifle clipped inside the door. We were too high to hit them but as a matter of principle, I decided to have a go through the open window.

The effect on Ron was electric. As I fired the first shot his neck lengthened 6 inches and his eyes bulged like a rabbit with mixo. In fact, Ron's reaction was so distracting that
I lost concentration and the next shot went through the port tyre. Ron was a bit upset about the shooting, probably one of those pinko animal lovers I thought, so I decided not to tell him about our little problem. Shortly afterwards I located the main herd and decided to do my fighter pilot trick.

Ron had gone back to praying when, in one smooth sequence, I pulled on full flap, cut the power and commenced a side slip down to 500 feet. About half way through the descent I looked back to see the calves gracefully suspended in mid air.I was going to comment on this unusual sight but Ron had rolled himself into the foetal position and was emitting high pitched squeals.

At about 500 feet I levelled out, but for some reason we continued sinking. When we reached 50 feet I applied power and that helped quite a lot. As luck would have it, at that height we flew into a dust cloud caused by the cattle and went IFR. I made a mental note to consider an instrument rating as soon as the gyros are repaired.

Suddenly Ron's elongated neck and bulging eyes reappeared.His mouth opened wide, very wide but no sound emerged. "Take it easy ", I told him "We'll be out of this in a minute". Sure enough about a minute later we emerged,still straight and level at 50 feet.

Admittedly I was surprised to notice that we were inverted. This minor tribulation forced me to fly to a nearby gully in which I did a half roll to get upright again.

By now the main herd had divided into two groups leaving a narrow strip between them. Ah! I thought: There's an omen. We'll land there. Knowing that the tyre problem demanded a slow approach, I flew a couple of steep turns with full flap. Soon the stall warning horn came on so I knew we were slow enough. I turned steeply onto a 75 foot final and put her down.

Strangely enough I always believed you could only ground loop a tail dragger. Halfway through our third loop Ron at last recovered his sense of humour.

Talk about laugh.....I've never seen any thing like it; he couldn't stop. We finally rolled to a halt and I released the calves. I then began picking clumps of grass. Between gut wrenching fits of laughter Ron asked what I was doing. I explained that we had to stuff the port tyre with grass in order to fly home. It was then that Ron started running.

The last time I saw him he was off into the distance with arms flailing in the air and still shrieking with laughter. I later heard he was confined to a psychiatric institution.
Any how that's enough about Ron: I just got a letter from CASA withdrawing, as they put it, the privilege of holding a licence to fly.

Now I admit that I made a mistake in taxying over the wheel chock but I can't see what else I did that was so terrible. Can you?


User currently offlineWardialer From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2026 times:

OK people! If we tighten up security on the ground then we dont have to even worry about pilots arming themselves in the cockpit. To me its like saying that the screeners are doing a lousy job on the ground. In order to keep guns away from the cockpit is to have the most maximum security ON THE GROUND!!!! Take an airline for example, EL AL. They literally interogate you before boarding the airliner. I think all airlines should do the same rather than arming pilots. For example, what if a psychologically impaired pilot boards an aircraft with a gun and starts shooting away. It doesnt take a terrorist to the harm. Oh, and what about those two drunk pilots that were about to fly. Take that into concern too.

User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2020 times:

For example, what if a psychologically impaired pilot boards an aircraft with a gun and starts shooting away.

Think about that statement. A psychologically impaired pilot doesn't need a gun to cause disaster.



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlinePPGMD From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2016 times:

"with general aviation, you can carry an AK47 loaded and ready to fire, to pratice touch and goes with your Piper Cub. I assume it is part of the minimum equipment list in USA..."

I hear that the loaded AK-47 behind your seat speeds up ramp checks, at least when its at the aircraft. Big grin



At worst, you screw up and die.
User currently offlineLeftypilot79 From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 455 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2011 times:

Saintsmen  Laugh out loud

That was a really funny story. Can you do a US version too? LOL  Smile


aaron


User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2008 times:

Dear CPH-R:
You watch too many Hollywood production movies... a bullet is not going to down an airplane... in Vietnam, my plane got more holes than one bullet, and always came back to the base...
Am I glad I no longer fly for a US air carrier any longer, here in my new country, our cockpit doors are wide open, we invite passengers, take pictures, invite kids on our lap to "fly the airplane"... even invite "little old ladies" who are scared to fly on the jump seat for landing...
And my present airline never got a hijacking...
I am not psychologically impaired... if I needed a gun and had one, I can be trusted with it as much as I can be trusted with the life of several hundreds of lives aboard the plane... and although not a gun enthusiast, except for my skeet and trap shooting with a "full auto over-under 12 gage" assault rifle with 2 shots high capacity -  Wink/being sarcastic - I learned how to handle a loaded pistol... With a magazine full, as long as the first round is not in the chamber, there is NO danger... learn about guns, flying John Waynes...
(s) Skipper


User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1980 times:

The original question was asking for a "specific regulation". You won't find one. This is like asking what regulation "specifically" prohibits me from running around the airplane naked spraying gasoline on the passengers as a cigarette dangles from my mouth.

The issue of firearms in an airplane is more in the realm of local law. For example, even if you are authorized to posses a gun in the US (airplane or not) you will not necessarily have the same auhtorization when the aircraft enters Canadian airspace for instance.

As for actually considering the idiotic idea of arming pilots we should consider that 75% of firearm injuries (fatal or otherwise) are caused by someone the victim knows. Furthermore, a large amount of injuries are caused by guns owned by the victim. There is no guarantee that placing guns in a cockpit will affect these statistics.



User currently offlineShaun3000 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1974 times:

B747skipper:

I think CPH-R was talking about the cabin of a pressurized commercial airliner being shot from the inside, not a fighter being shot from the outside. (Aren't most fighters unpressurized, anyway? That's why you wear an O2 mask...)

Anyway, I would imagine a regular bullet, if it were to go through the wall and exit the aircraft while pressurized, would be able to cause quite a bit of damage in certain cases. However, the Air Marshals have bullets that cannot penitrate the walls of an airplane, only human flesh (or anyting about that soft). The bullets actually cause more damage as they break up on contact and kill much faster. I am guessing that when and if airline pilots actually start carrying guns that they will have to use these bullets...


User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1961 times:

Dear Shaun3000 -
Fighters are slightly pressurized, cockpit area only...
Airliners are pressurized at a much higher value, US units is some 8 lbs per sq.in. ...
In the late 1970s while flying a 707 cargo, we hit severe turbulence, and a pallet was not anchored properly in the mid cabin area, causing severe frame and skin damage on the upper portion of the fuselage... we were pressurized and we noticed, not an "explosive decompression" yet a severe loss of pressure... We descended to a much lower altitude, 14,000 feet, and landed in Shannon, Ireland, having our oxygen masks on, then we depressurized the airplane completely when the flight engineer reported the damage... there was no further problem, just a big scare, and structural repairs...
In the mid 1970s, a DC-10 (National Airlines) engine fan blade hit a cabin window... a passenger seated near that window was sucked out of the cabin... there was no structural damage to the airplane, except the window pane missing... (so you passengers love window seats... huh...?)...
The strongest structural part of an airplane is maybe the windows... with the famous "fire axe" we have aboard, to try to go through a window is wasted time... see the "emergency cut here" painted on British airplanes, what area these are on the fuselage...
I am not against, or for weapons in the cockpit... but to my opinion, besides effective ground security screening, like EL AL (outstanding)... maybe the knowledge for terrorists to be aware that that captain John Wayne, first officer Gary Cooper, and flight engineer Clint Eastwood are armed with pistols may make them decide not to attempt anything... and hopefully these guns will never be used... just a deterrent... by the way, if sky marshalls have these special frangible, low velocity bullets, surely would be available to pilots...
EL AL has sky marshalls on virtually each flight... the pilots dont need guns...
The United States is a country with a "weapons culture"... live with it... I am in a nation where 12 gage hunting shotguns require permits, to be owned by individuals... and we have no hijackings ever... homicides with firearms are extremely rare, here, murderers use kitchen knives... or long screwdrivers...
(s) Skipper



User currently offlineFredT From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 2185 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1926 times:

With armed crew, I think the risk of sbdy one way or another, planned or just in a psychologically unstable state (air rage, sbdy?) getting hold of one of the crew's guns is larger than the riskt of sbdy bringing his own gun onboard the aircraft.

I'm definitely against the idea, against it using four letter words when not writing in a public forum.

Cheers,
Fred



I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1922 times:

Many posts on this particular subject seem to try to elevate the pilots to some sort of superman who is incapable of any wrong-doing.

The comment "you can trust me to fly you in this huge machine, therefore you should trust me with a gun" is just plain laughable.

I know a great many pilots. Many are candidates for role models. Others are not so saintly and have problems like any other average person. Others still are dangerous violent drunken idiots.

We have all read news stories of pilot who were not fit to fly, or of flight crew getting in heated arguments with other flightcrew sometimes resulting in physical fights. We've also heard of the extreme, where one guy trys to kill everyone on the airplane.....sometimes succeeds.

Having known this, why on earth would we want to arm these people with no regard to the person's mental and legal background? Will we have to start to fire pilots with a criminal record or those that can't pass background checks?

Are you comfortable sitting in an airplane being driven by a someone who beats his wife? How about someone who beats his wife and happens to have quick access to a firearm?

I reiterate; In the US "gun culture" most firearm victims know their assailants and a great deal of people are shot with their own guns. Unless the FAA imposes security screening of pilots that rival what police officers go through, you can guarantee that these statistics will remain intact if you arm pilots. Sooner or later an innocent bystander or an undeserving passenger or crew member will be killed.


User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days ago) and read 1916 times:

Dear Airplay -
Agree with you, pilots are not supermen, and according to your description, they are rather a group of low-life people, for which I thank you...
I believe that there is high incidence of domestic violence, in USA with law enforcement officers, many instances in which their service pistols were used. The other statistic I know, pilots have an outstanding record with, as an example, very few car accidents, very few arrests for drunk driving or speeding, this compared to the general public...
For or against guns, will be an eternal problem in the USA, and those who have arguments for, or against guns will never agree...
I thank you for voicing a discredit to the people of my profession, and classify pilots as criminals, violent drunkards and wife beaters. Based on your opinion, I would recommend you never fly as an airline passenger, and risk your life with such class of mentally disturbed people...
(s) Skipper


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1897 times:

Actually untill about two years ago, a firearm was part of the safety gear that was required on private aircraft operating in the State of Alaska.

That rule was changed because of those bleeding heart Canadian Liberals who all but banned the ownership of weapons in their country. There was a conflict in laws anytime that an aircraft transited the border. Needless to say that Alaska law folded to keep pilots from getting in trouble with one government or the other.

I hope that nobody gets killed because of this change in law...But eventually somebody will



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineShaun3000 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1889 times:

747skipper:

Thanks for the response. I had no idea that fighter cockpits were slightly pressurized. Any reason for this? I always thought the O2 system was a positive-pressure system and the cockpit was not pressurized.

And thanks for the examples of fuselage damage. I'd never really heard any true stories of a hole being punched in the body of a pressurized aircraft. The only one I head was about he Hawaiian air 737 whose fuselage failed and ripped completely off in the middle. I always assumed this was due to the pressurization but I supposed it was a catastrophic failure of the fuselage and the 500 mph wind probably didn't help matters much, either.


User currently offlineFredT From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 2185 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1885 times:

Punching holes in a pressure vessel is not something to be taken lightly. Try to find the video made after the TWA crash off New York. They pressurised a 747 on the ground and used a comparatively small explosive charge. The effect was tremendous, and easily recognizable to anyone who has ever punctured a balloon.

You can end up with anything between a slow leak and complete structural failure. You just don't know. The Hawaiian convertible 737 was caused by cracking, due to fatigue if IIRC.

Cheers,
Fred



I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1876 times:

B747Skipper,

I stated:

I know a great many pilots. Many are candidates for role models. Others are not so saintly and have problems like any other average person. Others still are dangerous violent drunken idiots.

In response you stated:

according to your description, they are rather a group of low-life

On the contrary, I described pilots in a way that puts them in a accurate category.... the same as everyone else, no better no worse.

If you chose to take offense then so be it, but I laughed out loud when I read the following statement in your post:

The other statistic I know, pilots have an outstanding record with, as an example, very few car accidents, very few arrests for drunk driving or speeding, this compared to the general public...

Are you serious? As I have said before, I know many pilots and can state with authority that statement is inaccurate.

L-188,

I love it when people pull out the tire old "bleeding heart Canadian Liberals" label. You can replace "Canadian" with just about any noun so the statement is so versatile. I always find it at the end of an arguement. Never at the beginning. That's because its the last resort when logic fails and further discussion is not wanted in fear of losing the debate. It's in the same category as "I'm going home and taking my ball with me".

You are misinformed sir. Canadian law does not ban the possesion of guns. It regulates it. There is very little stopping someone from owning a rifle or shot-gun. There are however very strict regulations regarding hand guns. These laws have remained virtually unchanged for the last several years. The major change imposed lately is the requirment to *register* the firearms. Of course those "bleeding heart gun owners" are crying about the added expense and inconvenience, but we're hoping that when "eventually someone" gets killed by one of these guns we might have a better chance at tracing the weapon.

Many many aircraft I have been involved with that operated in the arctic had a shotgun among the survival gear. The issue here is that Alaskans didn't think they should be subject to the neccessary paper work that was required to transport a gun across the border. Do you think Canadians should be able to bring guns into the US unchecked???? We have thousands of American hunters visit our country every year and the vast majority bring their own firearms.




User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1875 times:

So what you are saying is that I may bring my SKS across the border there.....

Oh wait I can't.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1873 times:

L-188,

We sort of frown on auto/semi-auto military assault weapons that were optimzed to kill people. We also don't allow howitzers, grenades, mortars or heat seaking missles.

For anyone who wants the "real" story, please check out the following link at the Canadian Firearms Center:

http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/en/visitors/default.asp



User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1859 times:

Dear Airplay -
I am not a pistol packing enthusiast and NRA member, nor anti-gun person and whatever needs to be done to counter terrorism and tragedies must be done at all cost, even if it means arming pilots... I would personally recommend the presence of sky marshalls, and EL AL type security on the ground at the airports if you ask for my recommendation.
xxx
I would like to mention that pilots are subject to close scrutiny by their own airlines, and in their licensing or initial selection, any evidence of dubious behavior or psychological problems may be grounds for suspension... If a pilot is arrested driving a car "legally drunk" his license is suspended... if a pilot is involved in domestic problems, he maybe also suspended in fearing that his personal problems may impede his performance on the job... a pilot who comes back home unexpectedly, and finds his spouse in bed with a lover will need a few weeks of vacation and counseling...
xxx
I served in the USAF for 5 years in active duty, then 20 years in the reserves and was appropriately trained to carry my service pistol while flying as pilot. If in Canada or the USA, law enforcement officers, the military are all trained in handling weapons. Many airline pilots I know besides myself have a military background... If you are concerned about airline pilots fitness to carry a weapon, I am concerned as an example about these law enforcement officers arresting "alleged criminals" and being violent with them, while arresting them as well... We have CNN here in South America... we see these "trigger-happy cops" and I would worry to be arrested by a Texas Ranger for a tail light which is not working on my rented car...
xxx
My wife carries a small pistol (illegally) in her purse for her personal defense, it is her decision... I was concerned about our kids, I have a 13 years old boy and 11 years old daughter... and accidents... I made a little experience with that pistol, as follows... My wife carries the pistol with a full "magazine" yet, no round is in the "chamber"... Two years ago, I asked my kids, to attempt to arm (or "chamber a round") by sliding the "action" (the pistol was empty, do not worry) - and they were totally unable to do so, their fingers and hands were unable to "pull" the slide despite all their efforts... Even my wife herself had to learn how to do it, she complained how hard it was...
xxx
I believe virtually all "accidental shootings" occur with revolvers and with the pistols that are kept with a bullet "chambered", or "under the hammer" as I am told that the policemen do in the USA... If my airline told me to carry a weapon, I would select a pistol, and obviously carry it loaded with a full magazine, but not with a chambered round... I have flown a couple of times with the president of Argentina aboard, and his team, surrounded by number of armed security people... As the captain, I briefed these people to carry their pistols in the manner I described to you, and informed them, of the few dangerous bullet impact areas of the aircraft. They fully complied with my requests.
xxx
Argentina, nor Canada have the "2nd constitutional amendment to bear arms" and yet, despite firearms regulations, our criminals in your country, or mine, bank robbers all have guns... and... Airplay, I would say you are definitely misinformed about airline pilots, and other forms of criminal statistics...
(s) Skipper


User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1852 times:

B747Skipper,

Please enlighten me. Direct me to the statistics that support your statements. Most of what I've read have formed my opinion that easy access to guns is the difference between the US and Canada when I read that they have 10 times the rate of violent crimes than we do. Unless I read otherwise, my opinion will not change.

I live in a city of close to 700,000 people. We average about 15 murders a year. The vast majority are commited *without* firearms. Seems like we are reading from two differenct references.

It's extremely rare for me to tune in to the local news and hear about gunfire. On the other hand, the news on the US channels rarely go a night without mentioning some firearm assualt. Why is that? It's not because Canada bans the use of firearms. It's because we effectively regulate their use partially by making it very hard to own a handgun, which in my opinion is designed for no other reason than to kill people.

I just saw some tragic news on a US channel about an 11 year old that was killed when his angered playmate shot him in the head after an argument. The boy went home and brought back his parents gun.







User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1846 times:

Dear Airplay -
I have no "firm" statistics about guns, here in So America, I have limited access to these statistics... The only thing I know, I that even here, Argentina with equivalent restrictions about weapons as Canada has, the "bad people" acquire guns to rob banks as easy as in the USA...
Accidental victims and crime victims statistics could be obviously different... If my wife has an argument with me, she may use that kitchen knife maybe, rather than a pstol, I would prefer she uses a firearm and aims right, it might hurt a little less -  Wink/being sarcastic
With driving as an example, the expert of statistics as far as premiums are obviously insurance companies (they have statistics better than we have) and pilots are on the top of the list for safest car drivers and pay lowest premiums for car insurance, I assume you can easily verify that, suggest you call an insurance company and get a quote, present yourself as an Air Canada pilot, then 10 minutes later call the same people and present yourself as a bartender... I believe your insurance quote will be quite different.
In Argentina, a highly handgun regulated nation like Canada, most of my acquaintances have handguns, most cases illegally, for legitimate home defense... our "cops" are low salary people, and I doubt they are screened for carrying or use of their service pistol... it is standard practice here, to often get stopped (with no legal reason, honestly) by the police for supposedly passing a red traffic light. We do locate a $20 bill with our driver's license if we are stopped, these poor guys try to feed their family with their meager salary... they pocket the money and let the "so called offender" go...
I own two prized shotguns - one skeet and one trap 12 gage shotguns - Brownings, engraved and made in Belgium valued at some US$10,000 each and displayed on the mantle of my open fire, registered and legal here, for me they are "weapons of the gentry"... if in any case I would fear for my life, I would reach for them rather than my wife's pistol... and if you ask, that would be my favorite cockpit defense. I have no attraction for "assault rifles" even for sporting purposes. With a rifle you can kill someone at 100 feet, with a pistol you are lucky if you hit your target at 10 feet...
If I was a lawmaker, I would restrict rifles much more than handguns, for me a handgun is a defensive weapon with inherant restricted range, while a rifle is an offensive weapon with lethal range.
You are obviously anti-gun, and I am somewhat with the same views as you, but with different ideas and philosophy...
I would not have hesitated, if I had a pistol on 9/11 and, being assaulted by terrorists, to shoot Mohammed Atta when he took control of the airplane to fly it against the twin towers in NYC... sure, I may have missed the first shot, and hit an innocent passenger, but I would have saved 3,000 victims in the WTC... as far as the structural integrity of my airplane, I have no doubt that a stray bullet against the fuselage skin would not bring the plane down... on that subject, aviation is a hobby for you, for me it is my profession... I know as much about airplanes as you know about your collection of butterflies.
(s) Skipper


25 Jeff G : Having known this, why on earth would we want to arm these people with no regard to the person's mental and legal background? Will we have to start to
26 B747skipper : Thank you Jeff G - Right now in the USA, there is at all times some 20 to 40 F-15 or F-16s from the USAF, USAFR or ANG in the air... with their weapon
27 Airplay : B747Skipper, Your comment: as far as the structural integrity of my airplane, I have no doubt that a stray bullet against the fuselage skin would not
28 Jeff G : I understand your comments on the availability on handguns and I appreciate the clarification, but it still has the possibility of introducing a handg
29 Airplay : Jeff G, My rant on "drug" money was in response to a comment made by B747Skipper and it is only relevant in that context. Primarily my statements are
30 Jeff G : OK, then. 1. Not every pilot will have a firearm, and there's no way of knowing in advance which ones have them. That takes away the "the gun will alr
31 ThirtyEcho : Why not just develop the statistics from the era when pilots carried a gun to protect the US Mail and see if this idea is dangerous or not? While its
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