Dragogoalie From Australia, joined Oct 2001, 1220 posts, RR: 8 Reply 1, posted (9 years 9 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2897 times:
A go around is conducted whenever continuing the approach could put the airplane in danger. A go around (in a light aircraft) normally consists of putting full throttle in, slowly retracting the flaps, and then just treat it as a takeoff. Sometimes if other traffic is in the area you're supposed to move a little to the side of the runway. When it comes to ATC, you just say something like "cessna N94402, going around". They just aknowledge it and you circle around and try it again. Whoever is flying makes the call, or in the case of flight training, sometimes the instructor. And sometimes ATC will tell you to do it if taffic takes time getting off the runway, birds are spotted in the vacinity, or any othe reason that may make it unsafe to land). Nobody actually dropped the ball, if the pilot is going around, they're doing the right thing by operating the airplane safely. I was tought if there is any doubt that you might not be able to make the landing, go around. I'm not sure how often it happens, it doesn't happen to me often because I'm a student pilot and only fly when the weather is almost perfect. I'm sure once I get more advanced and confident to fly in bad weather, winds will cause me to do more go arounds. I hope this helps. I know you were probably hoping for a response from an airline pilot or something, but I'm only a student pilot. If anyone sees anything that I posted that is incorrect, please let me know, but I'm pretty sure all I said is pretty acurate.
BigPhilNYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 4063 posts, RR: 59 Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2891 times:
Thanks for your answer.
Today was a clear day. The dock that I spot from is about 500 ft behind runway 31, where they were landing on. Teh Dash-8 hit the throttle RIGHT above me. It was a cool sound.
The one two weeks ago, it aborted landing when it was only 15 feet off the runway. It was one of the few landings that day that I decided to NOT film, and I ended up missing what would have been great footage.
ThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1624 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2861 times:
"Who dropped the ball"? Nobody did; dropping the ball would consist of continuing the approach when a go-around is called for. Go-arounds don't cause accidents; accidents ARE caused by continuing out-of-the-slot approaches, busting the MDA, colliding with another A/C on the runway, overshooting or undershooting the runway or serious speed excursions, severe wind shear, etc. All of these events are reasons to go around, which is the proper response to them.
FrequentFlyKid From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1194 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2789 times:
If an aircraft is departing ahead and an aircraft on the approach performs a go around then you essentially have two aircraft doing simaltaneous takeoffs a couple thousand feet away from each other. How is that handled?
Fanoftristars From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1549 posts, RR: 6 Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2767 times:
Wouldn't you call it dropping the ball if ATC cleared an aircraft onto the active when another aircraft is so close on final that the cleared aircraft won't make his takoff in time? I saw this happen at SLC three weeks ago. A WN 737 was cleared for takeoff, when I could clearly see from where I was standing at the end of 34R that the approaching WN 737 would have to go around. I thought, "what the hell is ATC doing???!!!" Sure enough, just as the WN 737 on the runway began to move, the approaching 737 gave full throttles, changed his heading to 360 and climbed out over the field. The Air Traffic Controller was immediatly changed. I think that consists of "Dropping the Ball"
FrequentFlyerKid:
I think my story somewhat answers your question... The approaching aircraft changed his heading slightly and climbed away from 34R. If I remember, and I'm sure some pilots could clear this up, they have published go-around patterns for each airport and runway. Any experts to confirm?
Jcxp15 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 996 posts, RR: 7 Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2764 times:
I would imagine the aircraft on finals that was forced to go around would be a lot slower than the departing one, could maintain visual separation, or ATC separation (speed, hdg) and probably would also fly a different "route" than the departing one based on the go-around procedure.
BigPhilNYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 4063 posts, RR: 59 Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2728 times:
JCXP has a good point. I was thinking that.
Since most go-arounds that I see are of Dash-8s, maybe the speed of the smaller aircraft is a factor.
I would think that ATC dropped the ball by clearing the planes to takeoff/land.
Mirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7334 posts, RR: 69 Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2739 times:
BigPhilNYC,
That go around was so AWESOME that my g/f FAINTED when she saw it!
As far as they go, does the a/c that went around have any preference or dibs if it goes around? Or does it just go to the very back of the line? Or does it depends on factors?
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2722 times:
If cleared for approach and landing, there is always a "missed approach procedure", which is published... although control towers will probably give different instructions. Typical is "maintain runway heading, climb to X000 feet and contact departure/approach 123.45"...
(s) skipper
ThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1624 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2675 times:
"The Air Traffic Controller was immediatly [sic] changed."
How do you know that? It is unlikely that a controller would be relieved due to a go-around. Understand that a go-around is NOT an unusual maneuver or an emergency of any kind. Go-arounds happen for any one of a hundred reasons; try this one, the the 737 in the air was shooting a practice/qualifying ILS and was executing the miss?
Non-pilots tend to over dramatize a go-around, that's for sure.
Dragogoalie From Australia, joined Oct 2001, 1220 posts, RR: 8 Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2655 times:
Go arounds could be equated to those times when you're pulling into a parking space, and you can easilly tell you're not gonna fit, so you either drive around and find another one, or back up and then try it again. It doesn't happen that often, but its by no means an abnormal maneuver.
BigPhilNYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 4063 posts, RR: 59 Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2626 times:
I personally think it's cool to see. When I am under the approach and the plane gusn the throttle when it's right above me, or I see it jet back into the air when it's 15 feet off the ground, that's pretty fucking cool to see.
While it might not be a big deal, it isn't too COMMON, which makes it kidna cool to see.
Dragogoalie From Australia, joined Oct 2001, 1220 posts, RR: 8 Reply 13, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2626 times:
I'm not saying its not cool. Hell I get excited when I see an airplane taxiing, but some people make it sound like somebody screwed up. Which may be the case, but either way, they're righting that wrong by doing a go around which makes it all better. I have yet to see a go around other than times when I was first learning to land any my instructor would say "go around" when I was approaching the runway sideways, off centerline, too high, and too fast .
Fanoftristars From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1549 posts, RR: 6 Reply 14, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2599 times:
ThirtyEcho:
I know the controller was changed because they have speakers in the park at the end of 34R that brodcast the frequency for 34R and 35. After the go around, the man that was doing the controlling left and a woman began calling the shots. Maybe it was the shift change, but I sure don't think so.
And maybe we non-pilots tend to overdramatize, but I'm sure the PF in the approaching 737 didn't feel like it was overdramatization to react as he did! By the way, the approaching 737 was cleared for a visual approach on 34R. Why would the 737 in the air be shooting a practice/qualifying ILS and be executing the miss? It was a Sunday afternoon at about 4:30pm. Pretty busy at SLC at that time and a poor time to practice!
B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2597 times:
Go arounds are cool (spelling "kewl" at times), awesome, and even a girlfriend almost has fainted... great, a perfectly normal and easy maneuver...
Go arounds are cool, what temperature, degrees F or C are the limits...
Cool means the opposite of warm (or hot)...
I have done a go around with 45 celsius, was not that cool, EPR limit was quite low at that temperature...
xxx
Gentlemen, a go-around (known as "overshoot" in British English) is a very simple thing... and far from being presenting any real problem. Pilots in training practice "go-arounds" hundred times...
xxx
On approach, we select "go-around EPR" on our EPR indicators, just in case we need that power... procedure only... my statistics, I would say I fly a "go-around" once every year or so... in simulators we do them all the time...
(s) Skipper
BigPhilNYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 4063 posts, RR: 59 Reply 16, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2576 times:
Ok B747, you do them once a year. I'd say that makes them kinda special. Christmas comes only once a year too.
It is jsut that it is something KEWL to see for an aviation enthusiast.
ThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1624 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2544 times:
Fanoftristars:
When the flight going around initiated its maneuver, it ceased being a landing aircraft and became a departing one, instead. It is not uncommon at large airports that a different controller would then handle it. In no way would it imply that the first controller was relieved; relieving a controller for a go-around would be like suspending your driver's license because you didn't park EXACTLY between the lines on your first try.
As for the practice/qualifying ILS, I was only giving an example of a no-fault go-around. In fact, it is the everyday missed approach procedure and not a go-around at all. A practice ILS usually ends with a missed approach and not a landing. There are a hundred other reasons for a go-around that are purely routine.
Please folks, as dramatic as it might look to observers or passengers, a go-around isn't a panic or emergency maneuver or a screw-up. It is the avoidance of a screw-up or an anticipated termination of an approach. Lets quit sounding like "Scary Mary" Schiavo or an NBC aviation "expert."
Fanoftristars From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1549 posts, RR: 6 Reply 18, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2506 times:
ThirtyEcho:
At slc the same controller handles departing and approaching aircraft. There is only one frequency broadcast and 34R and 35 are handled by that controller. Some days a different controller handles 35, but for the most part they are the same. I just don't think an airplane holding should be given takeoff clearance when an aircraft is on a 1 mile final, that's all.
Now try to take yourself out of the "I know everything about go-arounds; they're totally routine" mind frame and ask yourself if it's possible that the ATC could have messed up this time. Approach controllers are relieved when the aircraft in their airspace get too close. Why wouldn't a tower controller be relieved for giving takeoff clearance to an aircraft on the ground holding short when he has an aircraft on a 1 mile final?
ThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1624 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (9 years 9 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2448 times:
I'll try this one more time: as dramatic as it seems to passengers and non-pilots, a go-around is no big deal. You are going to keep insisting that the tower controller was relieved due to a go-around, so that becomes a moot point. What frequency was being tuned on the speakers that you heard; was it the tower or approach control or was it a scanner that picked up any active frequency? That would tell me a lot about the "new" controller.
Analogous to a go-around is a route or speed change while enroute for separation purposes. Occasionally, Center or Approach/Departure has given me the following example of an instruction, "Cessna XXX, turn right heading 270 for traffic 5 miles, 8,000, level." Or another example, "Cessna XXX, reduce speed to 130 for separation." No violation of separation has happened at all; in fact, the route or speed change has AVOIDED any conflict. Was it a planned maneuver anticipated when I got the original clearance from Clearance Delivery? No. Is it inconvenient? Somewhat. Is it an emergency causing the controller to be relieved? Never. In the old days (1960s), when IFR flying was mostly on airways, it was not uncommon to be turned off the airway for a few miles to maintain legal separation and then be told to re-intercept it, "Cessna XXX, resume navigation." This was not an emergency, either.
A go-around is a similar situation, albeit more dramatic to those on the ground. You do not assert that separation was ever violated in the described situation so I assume that it was not. Like the examples above, the go-around was instigated to MAINTAIN legal separation or for any one of a hundred different reasons not related to separation at all.
Fanoftristars From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1549 posts, RR: 6 Reply 20, posted (9 years 9 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2445 times:
ThirtyEcho:
You may be right; however, I just don't understand the takeoff clearance when an aircraft was on a 1 mile final. It is the tower frequency that is broadcast. You don't hear approach or departure control, or even ground control. Just the tower. The approaching 737 was given clearance to land on 34R--they were approx 6 miles from the field at that time--a departing DL 757 was given takeoff clearance for 34R then the WN 737 right after. The departing 737 had just begun to move when the approaching 737 initiated the go-around. The approaching 737 had just crossed where the lights began for the runway. Pretty close!
Like I said, you might be right but it makes me nervous that a tower controller would clear an aircraft for takeoff when there is no physical way for that aircraft to make its takeoff roll without the approaching aircraft, which he gave clearance to land, having to go around. I guess I'm trying to logically think about this and maybe that is what is messing me up.
In my mind, the controller would have been able to see the conflict, and in this case he permitted the conflict. It was preventable, and yet not prevented. So how does that fit into your thinking that it was no big deal? I'm pretty confused.
EssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2 Reply 21, posted (9 years 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2421 times:
Fanoftristars,
30E is correct. Go arounds are fairly common in class b, part 121 as well as other airspace/part 91. Go watch a VFR day @EWR; over an 8 hr period you'll see 3-4.
There is no reason for a go around to be punitive for ANY party; doing so would set a terrible safety precedent.
Mirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7334 posts, RR: 69 Reply 22, posted (9 years 9 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2391 times:
I don't think this thread has become something of melodrama. We are just curious.
For instance, BigPhilNYC, the original poster, and I, both went to LGA today as is was a nasty cold overcast summer day in NYC and the planes were landing on 4 and taking off on 31.
I love days like today in NYC, b/c it was cool, cloudy and for some reason, these conditions make contrails that more visible.
So we sat in Planeview Park across from LGA and watched a cacaphony of 737s, 757's, 767's, Dash8s, ERJs, CRJs, and SAABs fly over us as an average height above us of 70 feet. (came to this conclusion using a neighboring 2 story building as a reference.)
At one point, a CO 737 approached and pulled up to go around at about 90 feet up. It went around and later pierced the clouds once more about 20 minutes later.
Is there a height deemed to low for go around? does the a/c that went around have any preference for coming back to land? Or does it just go to the very back of the line? Or does it depends on factors?
whilst spotting, Phil and I saw some kids playing soccer right under the planes. That leads to my next post/question......
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
JRSLim From United States of America, joined May 2002, 9 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2309 times:
Fanoftristars wrote:'Wouldn't you call it dropping the ball if ATC cleared an aircraft onto the active when another aircraft is so close on final that the cleared aircraft won't make his takeoff in time?'
A lot of times what will happen is ATC will clear one plane in anticipation of the other plane on the runway pulling off or taking off in time. A non-pilot or novice pilot may think they are cutting things close but the ultimate decision is in the hands of the Pilot in Command. In busy situations ATC will need to get things as close as they can -- and this does not indicate a lack of safety.
But if you've just landed your Cessna you may be asked to get off on the next available taxiway with no delay. Or you may be cleared for takeoff 'with no delay'. The controller is expediting things and hoping for you to get clear for the next plane. if you are unable to -- then either atc or the pilot in the other plane will call a go around. Its not really dropping the ball as much as it is trying to get things done and it just doesn't work out. Same if you're In a small plane and are cleared to land under a large four engined plane-- atc may give you a longer downwind to help avoid wake turbulence, but it is still up to the pic to decide if theres enough clearance-- so if you turn final in your 172 and the 747 still isn't on the ground -- you may want to do the go around. No body dropped the ball -- it just isn't as safe as you would like.
Jcxp15 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 996 posts, RR: 7 Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2292 times:
Yea, I'm a non-pilot, and although i enjoy seeing a go around, I never thought it as a big deal. I always figured it was because of safety, I mean, better have a plane go around, and have a discussion like this, than have them try to land and pose a safety hazard, and maybe have hundreds dead.
In fact, I was listening to JFK ATC tonight, and about 3 minutes into it, AA1620 was asked to go around because of traffic still on the runway.
25 XXXX10: I understand that go arounds can be made even after an a/c has touched down
26 Goboeing: I understand that go arounds can be made even after an a/c has touched down. This is correct. My aunt said she was on a flight once where the pilot to
27 Bsergonomics: I don't know if this counts, but I once called a go around at 20 feet, due to a MASSIVE gust of wind under my starboard wing, causing an unacceptable
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