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FAR 91.3: PIC Final Authority?  
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6202 posts, RR: 12
Posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3688 times:

Below appears the regulation which has for years given the PIC the final authority as to the operation of his aircraft. I would like to know if there are any "post-9/11 world" implications on this "captain's authority". We're hearing more and more about planes being "ordered to land", etc, and with the military's new powers to shoot down civilian planes, who is really in charge? Will I as a pilot be shot down for using my 91.3 emergency deviation authority if I believe I've been ordered to do something I feel compromizes the safety of my flight? Analysis?

Title 14 CFR 91.3: Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator. (Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 2120-0005)



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3656 times:

Nothing has changed. The PIC can chose whether or not, for example, to comply with a landing order. However, if "someone" doesn't like the decision that a PIC makes, be prepared for a shootdown.  Innocent

Jetguy


User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6202 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3653 times:

I was afraid I would get an answer like that. Thus, if the pilot can be legally shot down, that he isn't in charge, is he?


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3651 times:

You have the right to chose not to comply. They now have the right to shoot. The PIC's rights haven't changed, the consequences for failure to comply have. Are they going to shoot down a Cessna 150? Probably not. They don't pose much of a threat to anyone other than the occupants. Would they shoot down a 747? I'm afraid that's a different answer.
Jetguy


User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3642 times:

Well, be aware that here with AR, we have 11 captains (747) who have on record, refused any and all flights to USA or through USA airspace... one of them is... myself...
xxx
Is not that I have specific concerns about being shotdown, but, as an example, I am sick and tired of the attitude of "security staff" at i.e. Miami Airport, when I am to board my own airplane, and my scissors are taken from my flight bag, as "a security concern" by order of the friendly aviation administration...
xxx
I assume that, soon, should I (ever) takeoff from 31L at JFK, there will be an F16 escorting my 747 plane to see that I make my left turn on Canarsie, rather than head for the Empire State Building or the Chrysler Building in Manhattan... ???
xxx
Some people are "licensed" to carry a pistol... and I AM LICENSED to handle a flying disaster of 377 tons (or 833,000 lbs)... if I am such a threat with my scissors and my airplane, the USA should prevent any Argentina aircraft from their airspace, and we should prevent any US airline landing in Argentina...
xxx
Am I right... let us be civilized in this world, please... ???
I have a family, two little kids and a wife I adore, do you think I still want to be a hero at my age... no, I just want to survive to my retirement...
xxx
I rather handle the security problems in Madrid, they have the Basque terrorists to be concerned about... Sick and tired of what I see on CNN-TV, I dont even watch these idiots any longer...
xxx
FAR 91.3 and other world aviation (ICAO) rules are derived directly from the old "admiralty law", the captain has full authority...
xxx
Happy landings
(s) Skipper


User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6202 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3624 times:

Thank you for your insight, B747skipper. I regret that people like yourself are no longer desiring trips to our country because of our idiotic bureaucrats.


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineLuzezito From Spain, joined May 2001, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3585 times:

I happen to fly to MAD often and I would be delighted to share a few words with B747skipper. His AR 742 looks great on the tarmac at night just before the flight!

Anyway, regarding the post, I guess that PIC has all the authority but you could reasonable speaking only be shot when both pilots make a grose mistake (unlikely) or there is a full certainty that the PIC does not have the controls of the a/c himself.

As for security controls in MIA. This is why IB are going to leave this hub.



Quoniam Vita Brevis Est, Propera!
User currently offlineTT737FO From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 472 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3537 times:

I find it quite odd that a US citizen flying for an airline in Argentina (which has a very questionable record of civil rights) would find it necessary to make the remarks that he did. Be that as it may...


>>>"Will I as a pilot be shot down for using my 91.3 emergency deviation authority"<<<

Not if you squawk 7700 and clearly state your intentions to ATC. Fly a non-threatening profile.




User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3527 times:

Dear TT737FO -
I am sorry you feel this way about me... our security at SAEZ has instructions to respect AAL, DAL and UAL crewmembers on duty when going through the security... obviously, THEY are not going to be the terrorists on a flight... and we do not wish to affect their public image, towards their passengers, by "official distrust" when they board their aircraft... we narrow our search to their passengers... incidentally, two of our airport security management held that security position with EL AL Israel Airlines... quite a respected background... We happen, in Buenos Aires, to have the largest Jewish community in the South American continent...
xxx
I carry "dividers" as navigation tools in my flight bag, yet these, although they are needed for navigation plots, were taken from me some months ago by KMIA security... as the captain, obviously, I am a top potential risk to attack my crew with my dividers to hijack my own aircraft for a terrorist act...
xxx
Lets be a little serious here about security... a little old lady boarding an aircraft is very unlikely terrorist, but a 25 years old gentleman with a Yemeni birthplace (whichever passports he holds) is subject to closer scrutiny, by these security people... many of which are retired military or police force...
xxx
I am sorry but, as a naturalized Argentina citizen (1995), I am no longer a USA citizen, and as a crewmember, I respected the USA laws when on duty as a crewmember flying to USA, with the proper "crew visa" in my Argentina passport... If you prefer another explanation to our request to operate to other destinations, I personally prefer layovers in Madrid, Roma or Paris...
xxx
ICAO does not have rules, but international agreements and recommendations and as far as I am concerned, the captain is in charge, last month I had to make an emergency landing in Recife, Brazil, because one of our passengers suffered a heart attack during flight... I was not shot down for doing so... Heard that this passenger's life has been saved...
xxx
And our cabin staff does not serve only peanuts, and do not hide in galleys during flight, they pamper our passengers, this is not the case of your airline if it is the case...
xxx
Your opinion of my country's "history record" for civil rights is an insult to the people of the street... we fight for civil rights in this proud nation... and I am one of them who does so... please no insults in a technical forum... Thanks... Our airline has posted a profit for the last year, is it the case of yours...?
(s) Skipper


User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6202 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3513 times:

I carry "dividers" as navigation tools in my flight bag, yet these, although they are needed for navigation plots, were taken from me some months ago by KMIA security... as the captain, obviously, I am a top potential risk to attack my crew with my dividers to hijack my own aircraft for a terrorist act...

That's the most rediculus one yet! I would tell the screener "NO, I use this when I fly and you can't have it", call up my chief pilot, union representative, checkpoint supervisor, station manager, or anyone else who might be able to put this idiot in his place.



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6202 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3511 times:

As a followup question, are fighter jets now scrambled every time (in the U.S.) when a plane diverts (for any reason)?


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3502 times:

No, just as TT737FO said earlier...

Not if you...clearly state your intentions to ATC...(and)...Fly a non-threatening profile.

Jetguy


User currently offlineTT737FO From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 472 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3467 times:

Here's a couple of things to consider:

1. Has a DOD (USAF, USN, USMC) tactical aircraft ever shot down a domestic airliner over our own soil? Many aircraft have been escorted by fighters--especially recently. However, it gives me a sense of comfort rather than uneasiness that we have an air defense system that can react so quickly--especially to a paradigm shift for terrorists.

2. Airport Security. It is flawed. However, to focus on passengers only is likewise flawed. Nowadays, it is quite easy to forge identifications. Any Tom, Dick, or Harry can have a uniform tailored and an ID made--in fact, one joker was caught in New York a while back claiming he was a pilot for my former carrier. I too have donated a leatherman unwillingly, taken off my shoes, and been"randomly selected" while off duty. However, given the Egypt Air thing, crew members can commit terrorist acts.

3. Lastly, despite the bad rap that KMIA has....let's look at a recent incident there that was positive. A security screener did the right thing by alerting the system when two buttheads attempted to fly back to Phoenix all soused up. Not saying it's perfect, it's far from it


User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3459 times:

Dear TF737FO -
We as a crew, 3 in the cockpit, and 14-15 cabin staff know each other. There is no way outsiders - with false ID, could "slip" into the group...
xxx
We dont "recognize" each other by ID, we know each other by first name and any outsider would not last 2 minutes after entering the aircraft...
xxx
Jhooper - yessir... dividers are mortal weapons, like my flight engineer's screwdrivers... and the scissors I use to trim the heavy amount of paperwork I try to trim for the "trip envelope"...
xxx
I boarded an aircraft as a passenger, less than a year ago, and was subject to a "special search" because my wallet was searched, which contained US - FAA pilots licenses... obviously I must be potentially "able" to figure how to fly whatever type of aircraft against the Sears Tower...
xxx
Try to call a "security manager", and I am likely to cause a 3 hours delay and subject to a CNN-TV "airport security alert" report... I am fed-up with this mess of airport security... you wish to treat all people equally, go for it, it is USA law... regardless of race and gender or age... as I said before, a little old lady with bags of candies for her grandchildren, in the USA, presents EQUAL THREAT to the flight security, as a young bearded Yemeni-born passenger...
xxx
The question is not equal rights... the question is to save USA from more terrorist attacks... you guys are at war, please do act ACCORDINGLY... emergency circumstances and USA national security excuse "civil rights"...
xxx
Wake up to reality, USA... sorry, know you guys well, was born there...
(s) Skipper


User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6202 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3386 times:

Luzezito,

I regret you have a problem with our country.



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3358 times:

We do not have a problem with the country, but with airport security...
The pilot in command - to us - has final authority and responsibility...
Authority of the PIC is getting seriously eroded in USA...
KAL 007 was shot down over by a MiG because back then the USSR thought their security was threatened by that aircraft... terrible mistake which was finally admitted by today's Russia... but I fear a F16 could, also by mistake, and with the same idea of a threat, be ordered to shoot down an airliner...
Sorry about the disagreement...
(s) Skipper



User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6202 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3354 times:

B747skipper,

That comment was not directed at you. It was directed at a post by Luzezito which I see has been deleted.





Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1610 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3349 times:

I like very much the comments, here and in other postings, by B747Skipper. He seems very much like a guy for whom common sense and using your God given brain is an important part of life. I too am an ex-pat, though I have kept my US citizenship. I understand your feelings about how you see the US from the outside. Not always a good feeling. I am not anti-American at all, but sometimes I see my homeland doing things I am not proud of.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I like the common sense approach he has to the questions here and the fact that as a captain of a 747 takes the time to answer the questions of many enthusiasts here. I am also an airline pilot but I am also an enthusiast. I am also "politically aware" and I see many parallels between his answers and comments and my own philosophies. Keep it up B747skipper!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineLuzezito From Spain, joined May 2001, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3343 times:

Jhooper

I have no problem with your country at all. As I stated in the deleted post (which was to be expected) It seems to me that you are living under a self-imposed state of war and security paranoia, which is clearly reflected in the often abusive airport security searches, as well as your attitude towards the rest of the world (which can be and is annoying)

Many of the US expats who I know here in Moscow think pretty much as I do or as SAAB2000.

As I also posted, the US are a bright country and in many ways an example to follow for the rest of us.



Quoniam Vita Brevis Est, Propera!
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