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Whats The Highest You Picked Up An ILS Beam  
User currently offlineTrent_800 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 136 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2499 times:

the question is in the subject really. Whats the higest altitude you have picked up either a localiser or GS beam?. i was just wondering what he range is on these devices.

9 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2472 times:

Daniel,
This is a very good question. As you know, the ILS is comprised of two separate radio beams, the localizer and the glideslope. Both signals are highly directional directional and line of sight. Most glideslopes are set up for a 3 degree descent. Simple math will show that 3 degrees = 318' per nautical mile. If you're at 10,000 feet you will intersect the center of the glideslope signal approximately 31.4 miles. If you're at FL450 and the airport's at sea level the distance is 141.5 miles. Do glideslope signals have enough "oomph" to travel those distances? The answer is probably, but they aren't usable at those distances. I often fly from Klamath Falls, OR to Sacramento, CA. It's a short flight, something like 208 NM. The unique thing about those two airports is that after taking off from runway 14 at Klamath Falls it's an absolutely straight shot to either runway 16L or 16R at Sacramento. Out in that part of the country, the traffic is so light that you seldom get much if anything in the way of vectors. All things being equal, we would normally climb to FL330 on a trip of that distance. Sacramento is 27' MSL, so based on 318'/NM you would center the glideslope at about 104 NM out. I have done that several times. (We typically get "pilot's discretion" descents" going into there.) On that particular leg, the localizer signal has always been strong enough to be picked up at the "top of climb", which is usually about 160 miles out of Sacramento and we "fly into the glideslope around 100 miles out. This corresponds nicely with what the VNAV usually computes for us, so in essence, we fly what amounts to a 150 mile ILS profile. The next question is, are the signals usable at those distances? No. The signals are like spokes in a wheel and at those distances there is so much lateral and vertical "slop" in them, that the are practically useless for anything other than saying, "Hey look, we've got the localizer at 150 miles." We may be flying the profile with both the localizer and glideslope signals being, more or less centered, but that's just a fluke because we're navigating with the FMS. The localizer signals don't become "focused" enough to be really usable until you're 15 or 20 miles out from the airport. I hope this answers your question.

Jetguy


User currently offlineTrent_800 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (11 years 7 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2325 times:

Cheers Jetguy, i would also presume that weather has an effect on beam range?

User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (11 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2307 times:

Not really. The frequencies used for the localizer and glideslope signals are pretty much immune from weather interference - at least at the ranges that they are usable for lateral and vertical navigation. The main signals that are affected by weather are:
1. The ADF - It's primary job is accomplished using low frequency signals. However, most people just us it to listen to the AM radio band. Big grin

2. Weather Radar - If it wasn't affected by weather (rain) it wouldn't be of much use.

3. GPS - It's signal can be attenuated by heavy rain.

4. VHF Comm radios - Can be affected with precipitation static (p-static), but this there is usually an underlying problem with the aircraft bonding if this is an issue.

Jetguy



User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (11 years 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2300 times:

Jetguy,

Localizer signals are in the same band as VHF COMM and NAV and can be just as easily affected by p-static.

The general rule of thumb is:

1)The higher the frequency, the less susceptible the signal is to atmospheric disturbances.

2) The higher the signal strength (transmitter power) the less susceptible it is to atmospheric disturbances.

3) Pretty much anything but amplitude modulated (AM) signals add an additional level of resistance to atmospheric disturbances.

Therefore, although GPS signals are relatively high frequency in the order of 1.5 GHz, they are very low power and can be attenuated by precipitation.

ADF signals, like you mentioned are relatively low frequencies and amplitude modulated (AM) and are very vulnerable to atmospheric disturbances and man-made electrical noise.

VHF COM/NAV/LOC signals are all equally suceptible but the Glideslope signals which are in the order of 300 MHz are somewhat less vulnerable because of the higher frequency.

By the way, it's no coincidence that weather radar tends to operate at the same frequency as your microwave oven (10 GHz) since the intent is to detect precipitation.




User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (11 years 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2297 times:

Airplay, You're absolutely correct about p-static affecting the localizer frequencies, but I qualified my statement by saying "at least at the ranges that they are usable for lateral and vertical navigation." For all intents and purposes, once you're close enough to be using it for an approach, say within 15 miles or so of the transmitter antenna, it's going to have to be raining awfully hard to cause you a problem. (Probably so hard that you'd be on your way to the alternate.) Additionally, like I said, if you encounter a problem with p-static it's because there's probably a maintenance problem - poor bonding - going on at the same time.



User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 35
Reply 6, posted (11 years 7 months 4 days ago) and read 2283 times:

If the radio beams are as strong as you suggest, is there contamination of the beam when you fly into somewhere like San Francisco ?, you would have signals from San Francisco, Oakland and San Jose all crossing each other.

Jeremy


User currently offlineCovert From Ghana, joined Oct 2001, 1445 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (11 years 7 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2269 times:

That's where adequate spacing of frequencies come in...


thank goodness for TCAS !
User currently offlineUps763 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 199 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (11 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2222 times:

Hi all,
Jetguy said it all. When you select the localizer frequency(108.10-111.95) you receive both LOC and GS, except when flying the BC. In the helicopter I usually pick up the GS at approx. 10 nm from the runway. As for the localizer, usually at about 18 nm out from the runway. Around 10-18 nm from the runway the localizer is good for about 10 degrees on each side of the centerline. When under 10 nm out it becomes more sensitive and is usable for about 35 degrees on each side of the centerline.

Cheers,
Matt


User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3451 posts, RR: 47
Reply 9, posted (11 years 7 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2161 times:

>Whats the higest altitude you have picked up either a localiser or GS beam?

FL420, localizer and GS for ILAX over Colorado River..... very early a.m.



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