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Approach Speed When Props Are In Front Of Jets  
User currently offlineAirbus Lover From Malaysia, joined Apr 2000, 3248 posts, RR: 9
Posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3714 times:

Hello...

I am curious that since a prop lands at a slower speed. Does the landing pattern have such rules where its always jets first then props?

What if the airport is congested?

Does the jet have to slow down and turboprop speed up to keep the separation?

Thanks!

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineRadarbeam From Canada, joined Mar 2002, 1310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3680 times:

Hi airbus,

talking from a GA standpoint, usually, us the small guys will be told to accelerate if we have a larger aircraft behing. For exemple, a 172 will approach at around 70kts on final but sometimes, to ensure separation, ATC might ask the aircraft ahead to accelerate (110kts is what I've been told to use) to reduce the rate of closure of the two aircrafts. The thing is you can't land a 172 at 110kts, so usually on short final you just cut the power and drop those flaps, after a couple of hundreds feet of floating you will eventually touchdown, that's why this type of maneuver should be done on long runways.

Radarbeam


User currently offlinePPGMD From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3681 times:

Well for the most parts the controllers will give extra seperation, along with asking you for a faster approach speed, while asking the jet to slow down and do S-Turns, that generally is enough, but in the end for the most part, its planning the flow of the traffic for the controller, heck a good one can sequence even a little C150 into a major airport.


At worst, you screw up and die.
User currently offlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1662 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3664 times:

I have encountered this many, many times. Yes, ATC will ask for the slower airplane to speed up and the faster one to slow down and, in addition, separation may be increased for wake turbulence reasons. This isn't much of a problem at major airports because there is usually a shorter runway on which to sequence the slower traffic. Even if that option isn't available, there are routine ways to slot the slow guy that handle the problem. By the way, I never would let ATC try to put me over the threshold at near cruising speed; I prefer to tell the controller what speed that I can safely maintain and to where I can hold it; for example, "I can give you 160 knots until the marker."

Bear in mind that there are other options to having folks slow down or speed up. You can always have somebody extend or cut short a route to increase separation. You have probably heard the familliar "extend your downwind for separation, traffic is a XXX on long final for runway X." In the case of parallel runways, somebody can be sidestepped to resolve the problem.


User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3603 times:

30E is correct, ATC will tell you to slow up, speed up, or maintain your present speed as necessary as they sequence you to the runway. But, for us the big problem isn't at the larger controlled airports, it's at the smaller uncontrolled airports the we often go to. It can often be a real challenge to sequence yourself into a pattern full of 80 knot Cessnas and Pipers when you're in a jet that has a minimum "pattern" speed of around 150 knots. Turbine powered aircraft also have a higher pattern altitude - 1,500' AGL in most cases.

Jetguy


User currently offlineJeff G From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 442 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3601 times:

If it's a case of turboprop vs. jet separation, often a savvy controller will vector the turboprop in front of the jet. Why? The t-prop can often go just as fast as the jet at low level, will keep high speed for longer and slow much more quickly than the jet. When I was flying turboprops, it wasn't unusual to keep 250 kts to the marker and still be configured and on speed by 1000 ft. We could lose 50 kts in a mile. A jet usually plans on losing 10 kts per mile, and is often hard pressed to get down in time if he's much over 200 kts at the marker. So, it really does depend on the situation.


User currently offlineT prop From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1029 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3585 times:

As Jeff G says a turboprop can keep speeds up until they are almost at the outer marker.

On short routes high speed turboprops like the Dash 8 400 would actually be faster than a jet because you don't have to start slowing down way out.

T prop.


User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3584 times:

To our GA pilot friends - I have a concern here for GA aircraft around major airports... and remember, I fly a little Piper L-21 on my days off, to teach my son to fly... so consider me as a GA pilot as well...
xxx
It concerns mostly mixed GA and airline traffic as often is the case in the USA... Why do 70 KIAS C-152 "need" to go to airports used by anything from DC9s through 747s... a typical 747 approaches at some 145 KIAS... I sincerely fail to understand the idea - and the practical aspects about it... educate me please...?
xxx
My concern is this - the safety of the little C-152s in the middle of jet traffic. I dont think I would feel very good if, God forbid, one day on approach, a small plane ends inverted, on the ground because of wake turbulence while following my 747 during an approach... And there is mid-air dangers too, the image of that PSA 727 in San Diego in the late 1970s comes to my mind...
xxx
I expect many of you saying "we have equal access"... true in USA but... if we think of automobile traffic (in the USA) with lanes reserved for buses, or small slow scooters prohibited from circulating on expressways, do they have equal access rights as well...? - I dont know what is the best idea...
xxx
With my little L-21, I would never go tangle with the 767s on major airports. In the USA, you are very fortunate to have very attractive GA airports, with various types of instrument approaches. I keep my plane on a small field close to a large airport... I communicate with approach, and avoid the flight path of airliners operating there, though I fly that L-21 VFR/VMC only...
xxx
We fli in the same skies, at the aero club, after flying for fun, we meet at the clubhouse, and share GA experiences, and discuss their airplanes, they like to ask me about the 747... Sometimes, I bring them for a visit at the airport, and if a 747 is in a hangar, we spend an hour in the cockpit together with me explaining how "that beast" works and flies, and what "that switch" does... we can be friends and good neighbors on the ground, can we be friends in the skies, but stay safely in our own playgrounds...?
xxx
Everyone in the company knows I have that little L-21, they know the registry and sometimes get a "hola" when I am on the same frequency... but honest, if I took that airplane to practice touch and goes on the airport runways, and because of my speed, I forced a company A340 in a go-around, next monday morning, I will have some explanations and excuses to find... and someone here in the A.net forum would say "gosh, did you see that go around/overshoot of that A340...?"
xxx
No matter what your opinion is, please let's think SAFETY first, yours or mine...
xxx
(s) Skipper  Wink/being sarcastic


User currently offlinePPGMD From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3542 times:

Skipper, personally I don't like flying into airports with an operating control tower, but there are times when I have to, not because I want to, but because its the main airport in the area (Milwalkiee, Sanford, and Daytona come to mind). Do I really want to be flying in front of jet traffic? Not me at least but in many cases I don't have much choice. I trust the controllers and I use a little common sense and we will all be safe.

Well I'm off to do some touch and goes at O Hare, well that is after the 10 hr xc to get there.



At worst, you screw up and die.
User currently offlineAirbus Lover From Malaysia, joined Apr 2000, 3248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 3527 times:

Hello, thanks people now i totally get the idea of the separation.. Smile

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29840 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3503 times:

B747skipper,You would be seriously screwed if you tried flying around ANC.

Actually a lot of the airlines up here are flying supercubs, 206's, 185's ect moving passengers that are being dropped off by the big boys out to the little bush strips that are their final destination.




OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3494 times:

Dear L-188 -
xxx
Used to often stop in ANC in the old days - not lately...
We landed generally East, often GA planes used the cross runway - at least ANC traffic gives everyone room to operate...
xxx
You know, I do not "object" to GA airplanes, visiting airports with heavy jet traffic... it is just the disparity of speeds on approach... sorry you misunderstand the reason of my concerns... that is, in hoping that 747s survive wake turbulence of C-185s...
xxx
I understand some GA pilots like to practice around big terminal areas, and night time is probably the best for that, with light commercial traffic... ANC is a different case with the bush flying... Love that seaplane base just North of ANC airport... wished many times to pickup a seaplane rating there, but never stayed long enough...
xxx
Happy contrails to you  Wink/being sarcastic
(s) Skipper




User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29840 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3488 times:

There is nothing like flying the post office into 6L when you have a heavy landing 14 and another one on the rool on 6R up here. eh? especially if you are in a Taylorcraft or something else really right.


As far as visiting ANC has a fairly large population of small aircraft here, Not to metion the floatplanes on Lake Hood or on the gravel strip there, The ones on Sand Lake to the south of the airport. And I haven't even mentioned the military traffic into Elemendorf, The small traffic into Merrill or the Army traffic going into Bryant.

Most practice traffic gets concentrated a little further north at Birchwood or Merill, or goes down to ENA. That is where out guys usually go to practice. Homer is now getting a lot of Air Force Herks down there shooting touch and go's also.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1662 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3472 times:

Skipper: I totally agree; there is really no need for a 152 to mix it up with heavy jet traffic at JFK or the like. The existence of small, hassle-free satellite airports should tempt anyone away from the big hubs. Why in the world would anyone take a 172 into JFK when Republic is a much more GA-friendly facility? Same thing with DFW and Love Field, Addison, Meacham, etc.
The fact is that the occasional 172 into DFW doesn't snarl anything and can be handled expediciously.

I think that the original poster had something else in mind; more like the routine arrivals and departures of aircraft like B1900s mixed in with heavy jet traffic. In most places, the proliferation of commuter runways with IFR access serves to keep the traffic separated. The real problems seem to arise at GA airports where aircraft like Citation Xs and G-Vs are being sequenced in with the Katanas and 152s. After flying into and out of New York's Republic for awhile, where this mix is pronounced, I'd say that ATC seems to keep the smaller GA aircraft in traditional traffic patterns and clear the jets for straight-ins and straight-outs.


User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3461 times:

I agree with what Skipper is saying and I also echo 30E's comments. From my experience flying "tiny" jets into large airports (LAX, SEA, DEN, ORD, ORL, DFW, IAD, JFK, and several large international airports) on a regular (monthly, if not weekly) basis, many of the big airports don't want us there and don't really have the facilities to adequately handle us. There are exceptions - LAX and DEN have some really nice GA facilities; but overall, at many of the larger airports we're considered to be the brown socks on the blue tuxedo of airport operations. The only reason they even allow us to operate there is because the FAA says they have to - they've all accepted federal funding. Mind you, we're flying jets and get this kind of treatment - we're capable of matching the "big boys" tit for tat when it comes to airspeed and climb/descent capabilities and our pilots typically have the same levels of overall experience as the airline crews. What amazes me is when I see John Doe, Private Pilot try to fly in and out of places like ORD. Do they have to accommodate him? Yup. Is it pretty? Nope. We only operate in and out of major airports as a last resort, there are just too many other airports that are much more convenient to where our passengers happen to be going. Oh well, I've off to Louisiana and Wisconsin and I've got some flight planning to do.

Jetguy


User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8202 posts, RR: 54
Reply 15, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3368 times:

Saw an interesting way of slowing a prop down after a fast approach with a jet in trail. Fly the approach on the ILS at a high speed (in this case we were in an Aztec with a BAe146 behind, at Berlin Tempelhof), when you want to dump a lot speed in a hurry descend beneath the glideslope (subject to obstacle clearance of course) then drift back towards the glideslope which is above you (although you don't actually climb back to it, just level out to rejoin). As you intercept it, reduce power and drop the gear. In my experience we went from 130 kts to a little over 90kt in a heartbeat. Felt like a smooth maneouvre, I thought it was very tidy and the BAe146 behind didn't become a problem cos we could fly a very fast approach then dump the speed pretty well all at once.

Pilot flying was an ex BAe125 skipper and had all kinds of tricks for a smooth ride (fussy VIP pax), he used to operate the 125 with only three noticeable power changes the whole flight (climb, cruise, power descent to FL100).



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3356 times:

No objections to bizjets - nor to "feederliners" at large airport, the bizjets because they can fly same speeds as we do on approach, and the feederliners because these guys fly around "heavy jets" all the time, and are very flexible as to speeds they use, and can "swing off" runways in a heartbeat...
xxx
In another posting a few months ago, I mentioned to you that I have a very bad habit when on an ILS, and flying behind another heavy, even if slightly smaller... I fly glide slopes "1 dot above" to avoid their wake...
xxx
I would recommend, when conditions are ideal for bizjets, to do it "2 dots above", when following an idiot like me (I know many others do like I do), to my opinion, that should not be a problem for a typical bizjet, having a superlong runway in front of you...
xxx
If you go to LAX - ILS 25L, it would probably help you to get of that runway faster to clear to the South side for the FBO...
(s) Skipper


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4229 posts, RR: 37
Reply 17, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

Be careful with that cedarjet- you do taht behind a 757 and you could get dropped into the ground b/c of its wake.. Its best to stay a little high behind a large jet.


Turboprops are great.. i generally am 5 miles out at 230 knots, and have slowed to 100 knots by touchdown. Works out great- been told numerous times to slow down for jet traffic in front of me.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineShaun3000 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3316 times:

Was flying into Addison, once, in a 172. Approach informed me that traffic following me was a business jet (can't remember what kind, but it was bigger than a Lear) and asked me to keep my speed up. I complied (heh, as best i could, anyway) and he passed me over to tower. Tower told me to slow to approach speed. I said ok, but approach told me to keep my speed up for the biz jet behind me. Tower came back and kinda laughed and said, "Yeah, well, I don't think that'd work for very long." (or something along those lines)

I thought it was pretty funny, as did tower. I odn't know that approach realized just how slow a 172 is...


User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6206 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3303 times:

Fort Worth Alliance kicks into gear late at night with the FedEx traffic. About 5 years ago,I shot an ILS in a C-172RG at 130 knots with a WN 737 behind me; was quite exhilerating. I've always wanted to fly to DFW, but for some reason I haven't yet got the gonads to try it yet (or maybe it's called common sense, not sure).


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1662 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3281 times:

Cedarjet: that sounds very dangerous; deliberately flying below the GS is a big no-no for me and I long ago adopted the "no fly-up" standard for a safe approach. Just how do you determine what a safe obstacle clearance altitude is once you are below the GS?

I will say that hitting a building or a highway overpass will definitely bleed off a lot of airspeed but there are easier ways to do it. If you have gear and flaps down, disc drag produced by cutting power will more than suffice and, even if it doesn't, what does it hurt to float a bit down what has to be a longer runway than you need (it fits the jet behind you)?

I'm also a bit concerned about your gear-down point when flying an ILS. Everybody has their own style but my personal choice is gear down at the outer marker, power for speed. Landing gear up is also a good way to slow down but its hard to exit the active and then there's that damned scraping sound.


User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8202 posts, RR: 54
Reply 21, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3267 times:

XFSUgimpLB41X, the jet was behind us, nothing much in front. You're right, in fact I wouldn't want to try much of anything behind a 757. I have flown into a 757's wake in a 737, that was quite a ride (although the really wild one was an Olympic 747-200's wake, I was in the jumpseat of a Dan Air 737...whoah baby).


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
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