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Near Miss  
User currently offlineDC10 From Canada, joined Apr 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0
Posted (13 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1255 times:

Hi,
I read in the general aviation forum the a crossair plane cross the active runway while an alitalia plane was taking-off, and so rejected is take-off. My question is:
1/Is it a Near miss?
2/Who can post a near miss: pilots & ATC?
3/How do you post a near miss? By radio? What data compose a near miss?
4/To the pilots of the forum: have you ever post a Near Miss, or be the witness of one?
Thanks!
DC10

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePilot1113 From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2333 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (13 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 936 times:

As per the FAR's its the pilot's ultimate responsibility to see and avoid other aircraft, even under an ATC enviroment. Although it's not stated specifically, as the ultimate control of the aircraft lies with the pilot and he/she must accept/decline an ATC clearence, the consequences of the action lies with the pilot. Even if controller purposely put you on a collision course with another aircraft and the visiblity is nil so you can't see the other aircraft.

With that said, a pilot and an ATC have a responsibility to report any near misses. The pilot can usually do this, in the United States, by filing an ASRS (Aviaton Safety Reporting System) form. This system gives the pilot immunity from any prosecution, except under cases of an accident where severe damage to the aircraft or injury/death to an individual has occured.

The link to ASRS is: http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/main.htm. I suggest you check it out for more information and they have stories posted about various aviation incidents that pilots and other other people have reported.

- Neil Harrison


User currently offlineJFL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (13 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 913 times:

Hey !

I was holding short at the LONDON HEATHROW aiport when I saw a BA 747 doing a RWY incursion in front of a Landing A300. The A300 went around. It was pretty impressive.
Years later, I was doing an ILS approach, minimum (DH) was at 525'. Ceiling was around 1000'.
As I broke out of the cloud a light trainer was just in front of us, just below the clouds. We had to take an evasive action and then to go missed... I have issued the pilot and to the instructor a violation. They were operating under VFR into class E airspace...They had to review their clouds clearance, while they were both grounded for sometime.

JFL.
FAA.


User currently offlinePilot1113 From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2333 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (13 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 900 times:

Are you really from the FAA? If so, what capacity are you?

- Neil Harrison


User currently offlineDC10 From Canada, joined Apr 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (13 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 886 times:

Thanks, Pilot1113, I didn't know this site (and even the organisation): VERY interesting!
Thanks again!
Regards
DC10


User currently offlineJFL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (13 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 865 times:

To correct to the proper phraseology, we are speaking of "Near Middair Collision". A "Near Miss" is quite a non sense...
To Answer Pilot1113, it's yes, I sent you an e-mail.

Best Regards,
JFL.


User currently offlineCitation From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (13 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 840 times:

George Carlin, the comedian, used to say that when two airplanes come close to each other and almost hit, it should be called a Near Hit, not a Near Miss. The airplanes nearly hit each other, they didn't nearly miss each other.

User currently offlineAaron atp From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 533 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (13 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 834 times:

I once heard a story of a guy who had just caused an incursion, who was sitting in the pilots' lounge filling out an ASRS form. A new hire walked by, and after seeing "National Aeronautics and Space Administration" in bold letters on the top of the side where you transcribe the incident, made the comment "applying to NASA huh? I always wanted to be an astronaut! and a few other ignorant comments before the guy walked off. Apparently the other guys in the room started laughing after the initial comment.

It must've added a lot of insult to injury. Filling out an ASRS form is a very humbling experience (even if the PF only busted an altitude).


aaron




User currently offlineJFL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (13 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 825 times:

Yep ! I agry and would like to add that we should not hesitate to use the NASA form. But don't forget that if a violation has been issued, the "violator" will not be prosecuted but the violation will recorded on his FAA pilot file...Just in case someone didn't know.

JFL.


note: RWY incursion is an actual Hot spot in the FAA Aviation Safety Program.


User currently offlineBuff From Australia, joined Mar 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (13 years 11 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 820 times:

Oddly enough, a lot of recent incursions have been a direct result of LAHSO/SIRO practices urged upon the industry by the FAA!

Nice to have a regulator on the forum, JFL!

Best Regards,

Buff


User currently offlinePilot1113 From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2333 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (13 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 791 times:

I have to say that the ASRS is a great program to have. Without it, the FAA wouldn't know what areas need to be looked at. With this program the 'holes' in safety are addressed and remedied.

It's also a great "cover your ass" program too.  

- Neil Harrison


User currently offlineJFL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (13 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 794 times:

Filling a NASA form is like I said recommended but don't think that it's to protect yourself from any FAA prosecution. Sure in some case the Agency will but in general if we have a pilot deviation, before starting a violation process, we'll meet the pilot(s) and talk about what happened (RWY incursion / Altitude Deviation / Airspace violation....FAR's violations...
The idea is to work TOGETHER to make our skies safer. If the pilot did something wrong and he present a good, cooperative and constructive attitude we'll try to fix him instead of taking him from the flight line. Revoking/Suspending a certificate is probably the sadest and most crual thing to do to a pilot ! We have the option to built with him a remedial training.
Also the greatest thing of those investigation is to know the area of deficiency: For the pilot (inducing memo to DPE/ASI, change on PTS/Area of Operation/Task for the airmen certification). But not only for the pilot but also for the ATC, for the administrator...to change the reg's.
Any information may help to make an incident/accident a "Never Again".

I have flown in half a dozen different aviation system and the US/FAA system is really the most friendly and constructive aviation administration I've seen. The problem is that a lot of US pilots have never been elswhere so they cannot appreciate how the FAA is trying to work on the side of Airmen toward a comon goal: Aviation Safety.

Sure don't take me wrong, it's not always working as good as my description but this is the actual tendancy and policy.

Best Regards,
JFL.


User currently offlineAaron atp From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 533 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (13 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 799 times:

You know they invented wheelbarrows to teach FAA inspectors to walk on their hind legs.

— Marty Caidin



I love that one...  

aaron


User currently offlineJFL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (13 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 770 times:

It's a good one ! 

JF.


User currently offlineHeckler From Germany, joined Nov 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (13 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 754 times:

DC10,

The incident you are refering to isn't a near miss but a runway incursion. A runway incursion is whenever a vechicle, acft, or person crosses an active runway without authorization. Now if a controller told the vechicle or acft to cross in front of a departing or landing acft it's an operational error.

A near miss can be filed by the pilot or ATC. In the terminal enviroment the seperation standards are 3 miles horizontal and 1,000 feet vertical. In the enroute enviroment the horizontal seperation increases to 5 miles.

As a controller I've seen more near misses than I care to think about.

Mike


User currently offlinePilot1113 From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2333 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (13 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 727 times:

You're an ATC? Cool! Another industry specialist joins the forum!  

Anyhow, where do you work?

- Neil Harrison


User currently offlineBuff From Australia, joined Mar 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (13 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 725 times:

Howdy Heckler. Welcome aboard.

I think George Carlin said it best, 'cuz that's what one feels like when confronted with the situation first hand.

It's not "Thank God we missed him" so much as "Holy S***, we nearly hit him!" with the resultant laundry post scenario.

Best Regards,

Buff


User currently offlineBen2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (13 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 727 times:

It's nice to have an ATC'er here. Welcome aboard.

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