NormalSpeed From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (11 years 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4279 times:
There's some discrepancy between what I had been taught for my commercial checkride, and what I'm now being taught in preparation for my CFI checkride. From what I can tell from my various study materials, the "new" way is more correct (although both are still within PTSs). I'm still sort of curious, however, about how you all learned lazy eights, and what was acceptable for your Commercial and CFI checkrides. Care to shed any light on the subject?
TWAMD-80 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1006 posts, RR: 4 Reply 1, posted (11 years 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 4223 times:
I have been working on Lazy 8's for a bit in preparation for my commercial certificate. The way I learned was to keep them slow. I learned to make my lazy 8's lazy. Actually if you wouldn't mind could you tell how you learned them 'Speed and maybe include some tips if you have any. Thanks!
Two A-4's, left ten o'clock level continue left turn!
Illini_152 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1000 posts, RR: 2 Reply 5, posted (11 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4066 times:
I've been taught both ways myself- first was by a former Navy pilot, to did them like wingovers. Very quick, and very easy this way. I was later taught the sssssllllloooooooooowwwww way, much more difficult to do perfectly, but showed mastery of the aircraft much better.
FWIW, I did the slow way on my commercial checkride, and while the bottem was a little flat (was still rolling out the last of my bank after I leveled the nose) I still passed.
I do wonder what the DPE would have said if I just rolled into a wingover though...
Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
NormalSpeed From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (11 years 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4001 times:
Yep, that pretty much sums up the two techniques. My CFI instructor, who happens to be ex-Air Force, does them a lot faster, and well, a lot less "lazier" than I was taught for my commercial checkride. Here's the details of both the versions of the maneuver:
Pitch up is radical enough to bring airspeed within 5-10 kts. of stall (resulting in about 500 ft gain in altitude), bank (past the 45 degree point) is brought all the way to 30 degrees, and pitch down is as radical as pitch up--it has to be to keep things symmetrical and to regain all that lost airspeed. (We have been starting them at Va, which is 118 kts in the Arrow). It's a lot faster.
Just the same, except a lot more gradual pitch/bank changes, perhaps only a gain of 200-300 feet in altitude, and I doubt if the bank ever got to 30 degrees. Flown a lot slower, is a lot harder...
But my CFI instructor says it's not a "real" lazy 8.
I did some checking in references such as Gliems "CFI Maneuvers," the "Airplane Flying Handbook," and ASA's "CFI Oral Exam Guide," and it seems like the "new" way is a more "correct" Lazy Eight, but I still passed the commercial checkride with the "old" way.
Ralgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6 Reply 7, posted (11 years 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3997 times:
The slow way is what DE's like to see, but they really can't fail you for doing them fast, as long as you meet the PTS.
Lazy 8's are not extreme maneuvers, they're not aerobatic in any sense of the word. They are ment to demonstrate precise control of all dimensions. Some instructors/pilots are probably bored with real lazy 8's, and subsequently try to make them aerobatic by whipping the aircraft through them, which is not really correct even if it will pass the PTS.
Illini_152 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1000 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (11 years 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3989 times:
FWIW, I used the slow way on my commercial ride like I said, and that's about how it went, I don't think I ever moved the yoke more than 1/2" in any axis throughout the whole manuver, my second instructor was big on the slow part of it.
Can't say about the CFI; had 8's on for that, and managed to screw the pooch pretty badly both times on that one, but I probibly would have done them the same way. Funny that you mention the Air Force thing though, I've had the fast meathod demonstrated to me by 2 instructors, one was like I said, an ex-Navy S-3 pilot, the other was a retired Marine A-6 B/N, must be a military thing....
If I rememeber, the key that helped me best on them was, that you should have constantly changing rates of pitch and roll. And I know I was using less than Va as an entry speed, I think I was using 100 mph and 19/2000, but that was in a straight legged 182.
I know I'm rambling now, but it's late and that's what happens with insomnia... anyway, your best bet (besides doing them the way you know the best) might be to just give you local FSDO a call and ask. Unless there's a severe backlog or you're doing your CFI part 141 you'll be going through them anyway. Ask the examiner yourself which way the FAA perfers to see on a CFI checkride. Can't hurt, right?
Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
NormalSpeed From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (11 years 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3944 times:
Here's an update for ya'll:
I had the opportunity to talk to the Examiner (our school uses a DE, even though it's part 61. Less time with the Feds, the better, right?) that I will be taking my CFI checkride with, and I asked her what she thought about the two techniques. She said that she prefered the slower way. So, I guess that answers that. Apparently, the faster way of doing lazy eights is older, which explains why our, ahem, older instructors prefer to do them that way. One thing the DE did mention: Both ways are acceptable for the checkride.
NormalSpeed From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (11 years 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3909 times:
Well, the reason why no one wants do describe a Lazy Eight to you is that they sort of defy description. I can quote you the official description of a L8, and it still might not make much sense. Here goes nothin':
"The lazy eight is basically two 180 degree turns in opposite directions, with each turn including a climb and a descent. It is called a lazy eight because the longitudinal axis of the aircraft of the aircraft appears to scribe a flight pattern about the horizon that resembles a figure-eight lying on its side."
--FAA's Airplane flying handbook
"The objective of the lazy eight is to develop the pilot's feel for varying control forces, and the ability to plan and remain oriented while maneuvering the airplane with positive, accurate control. It requires constantly changing control pressures necessitated by changing combinations of climbing and descending turns at varying airspeeds. This maneuver is often used to develop and demonstrate the pilot's mastery of the airplane in maximum performance flight situations."
--ASA's CFI Oral Exam Guide
Here's the steps to perform a lazy eight:
1. Establish maneuvering speed.
2. Start the maneuver from level flight with a gradual climbing turn toward reference points (one at 90 degrees from the heading you start at. I use mountain peaks.)
3. At 45 degree point, maximum pitch up, bank 15 degrees.
4. At 90 degree point, level pitch, bank 30 degrees.
5. At 135 degree point, maximum pitch down, bank 15 degrees.
6. At 180 degree point, level flight, entry airspeed, altitude the same as entry altitude.
These steps are a description of where the airplane should be while crossing the various points of the turn. The maneuver should be done smoothly. For example, at the 45 degree point, the bank should be going through 15 degree, rather than banking to 15 when the 45 degree point has been reached.
Here's the FAA's Practical Test Standard for Lazy Eights:
Approximately 30 degrees bank at steepest point.
Constant change of pitch and roll rate.
Altitude tolerance at 180 degree point: +/- 100 feet (30 meters) from entry altitude.
Airspeed tolerance at 180 degree point: +/- 10 knots from entry airspeed.
Heading tolerance at 180 degree point: +/- 10 degrees.
The lazy eight is a required maneuver for the FAA Commercial Certificate and Flight Instructor Airplane Certificate. It's a difficult maneuver to perform properly, but I'd rather do lazy eights than go through all the crap that the JAA thinks you need to become a pilot.