Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Jet Exhaust At Ground Temps Of -40C  
User currently offlineYvr74 From Canada, joined Sep 2002, 52 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2410 times:

I am not a regular user of this forum, so if this is one of those regularly asked questions or previously discussed, please excuse me and point me in the right direction.

One morning I was returning to Vancouver, BC from Calgary, AB. When we arrived at the airport at YYC it was -37C. When I saw the airplanes arriving and departing from the gates, I had to wonder why there was no vapour produced by the jet exhaust at such cold temps. Then I realised that sometimes I've spotted aircraft passing high overhead with no contrails either.

How and why is this?

Lance

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Contrails usually only form at altitudes above 25,500 feet. IT has to do something with the Thin Air and Cold Temperatures up there.

User currently offlinePositive rate From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 2143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2360 times:

Depends on the moisture content of the air. On very humid days the contrails seem to last for longer and they are really thick. A contrail is simply the jet exhaust condensing into the atmosphere. I think it also depends on the dew point temp but not 100% sure.

User currently offlineJetCaptain From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 236 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2338 times:

Persistent contrails require a relative humidity with respect to ice (RHI) that exceeds 100%, and are also dependent to some extent on the efficiency of the engine. Check out this website for more information, and a graphic contrail forecast application that you can play around with.

http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/contrail_forecast/contrail_prediction.html

The coldest static temperature that I have ever personally experienced on the ground was -46C. I witnessed a departing B737-200 leave a big thick white contrail, similar to what you see at cruise altitude, as it rolled down the runway on its takeoff roll. This is the only time I've ever seen a jet contrail on the ground. I don't remember what the dewpoint was, but the visibility was reduced to about 4 miles in ice crystals at the time. The contrail extended from the point the takeoff roll commenced until rotation, and continued during climb, and lingered far a few minutes. I wish I had a camera, it would have made an impressive picture.

JC


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29699 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2248 times:

You are asking why you don't see vapor out of a jet engine at cold temps like you do when you see the car exhaust running right???

The answer is water or lack thereof. That "smoke" is water vapor in the exhaust condensing in the air.

Jet Fuel is run through a series of collescers(spelling?). If memory serves three of them. Each collescer(spl?) is a special type of filter that removes water from the fuel. So by definition jet fuel is very very dry compared to auto fuel or diesel fuel, which doesn't have the water content and isn't run through though those collescers(spl?) before sale.

Any water that is in the fuel goes in the engine and comes out the tail pipe.

Automobiles (gas ones) also have catalytic converters to improve their emissions. The byproduct of this process is oddly enough water also. If you are ever behind a car at a stop light, sometimes when the light turns green you will see a little trail of water coming out of the tailpipe. This is water that has collected in the tailpipe from the exhaust both water that was in the fuel and water that was "made" by the catalytic converter and is only being blown out as the pressure in the pipe increases.

Jet airplanes obviously lack catalytic converters, their fuel is much drier, so their exhaust also contains far less moisture then a comparable car engine, so it is that much less likely that a contrail will be made from that exhaust.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineYvr74 From Canada, joined Sep 2002, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2241 times:

Thanks for your posts guys. It makes a bit more sense to me now.

Lance


User currently offlineAirtangora From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2228 times:

Ahhh haaa, the answers to this very question has answered a question that came to me just today driving from Seattle to Portland. As I was nearing Portland I saw two separate sets of contrails disappearing. At the time, not sure why, but now I think I do...they were descending below the FL to create the contrails as they were getting ready to land at SEA I presume. Would I be correct?


A bad day on the road is better than a good day in the office.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Reply 7, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2151 times:

Actually, the water vapour in car exhaust is mostly generated in the combustion process as far as I know. Even if there´s absolutely no water contained in the fuel or in the ingested air, vapour will be formed from oxygen in the air and hydrogen that was chemically bound in the fuel (which contains numerous hydrocarbon compounds).

A significant part of an oil combustion engine´s power is actually generated by burning the separated hydrogen to water, while the carbon will burn to carbon oxides (mostly carbon dioxide, hopefully).

I don´t know too much about the exact mechanisms in forming jet contrails, but my guess is that it´s a combination of a relatively high "base humidity" in the ambient air in conjunction with the additionally generated vapour from the combustion process which pushes total humidity beyond the dew point (it would have had to be close enough to it).

Since the turbine exhaust is hot initially, the actual condensation only starts when the exhaust has cooled off sufficiently.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Josef P. Willems



User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2087 times:

collescers

You must mean COALESCERS

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29699 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2058 times:

Thank you BR.

That word isn't in the spell check Big grin



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineYikes! From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 284 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (11 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1953 times:

Moisture in the air. No question. MY personal best was Peace River, Alberta in 1981: -63 degrees Celsius. People left contrails walking along the street.

Best Regards,


User currently offlineLubicon From Canada, joined Oct 2000, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (11 years 4 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1895 times:

Ahhh, Peace River, my home town. Last time I was home for Christmas it didn't get warmer than -40° C (and that was the high temp!). Not as bad as S.E. Saskatchewan though, -55° C with a windchill of -86. Nasty. Sorry to hi-jack the topic.

User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (11 years 4 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1862 times:

Why do people continually make up these tales of Canadian Winters?

The record all time low for Peace River is -49.4 C in 1950 and I couldn't find anything lower than -48 C for SE Saskatchewan. STOP EXAGERATING!



User currently offlineWJV04 From Canada, joined Jun 2001, 582 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1765 times:

NO kidding Airplay -38*c in yyc, YA RIGHT what day was this? cause if was december youd probally know that calgary didnt get any snow untill the 29th of december, and we had extremly high temperture for december, some times as hot as 15*c for the entire month.

Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Jet Exhaust At Ground Temps Of -40C
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Why The Little Hole At The Bottom Of The Window? posted Tue Oct 17 2006 03:19:07 by Gh123
Jet Exhaust: Does It Cool? posted Thu Apr 15 2004 02:03:41 by Lehpron
Wicks At The End Of Airbus Wings posted Thu Sep 25 2003 16:40:42 by Bruce
Cause Of Specific Sound At Take-off Of A-320? posted Mon Aug 18 2003 12:09:22 by OOPJV
Helicopter Jet Exhaust Counter-rotor Types posted Sat Aug 2 2003 14:34:33 by HAWK21M
THe Hole At The Back Of The Plane posted Fri Feb 9 2001 07:53:44 by Bruce
Help: How Do The Pilots Steer A Jet On The Ground? posted Fri Feb 2 2001 14:11:31 by Luxair
Centre Of Gravity If Passengers Move All At Once posted Mon Aug 21 2006 17:22:13 by A520
Exhaust Gas Speed At Start-up posted Sat Aug 19 2006 00:25:26 by Hugh3306
Does Engine Exhaust Glow At Night? posted Fri Aug 18 2006 15:04:45 by CURLYHEADBOY

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format