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Radio Telephony Et. Al. In The USA  
User currently offlineTom775257 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 153 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 years 11 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3094 times:

Hello,
I am a private pilot in the U.K. and I am hoping to come over to the U.S.A. in the summer to get my multi-engine rating. I have a few questions. First, is there a book anyone can recommend that discusses radio telephony in the U.S.A. (Is it even necessary to get a book as long as I follow standard ICAO R.T.?) From listening to the ‘live ATC’ function at certain airports in the U.S. I have noticed a few differences in style of R.T. to that in the U.K. Things seem slightly less formal than R.T. in the U.K., I have noticed that read-backs are rarely complete at busy times etc.
Secondly, a few questions regarding approach to aerodromes… In the U.K. at less busy airports it is common for VFR traffic to perform an ‘overhead join’ i.e. approach the airport 1000 feet above circuit height; then orientate yourself to be able to pass the active end of the runway, descending dead side to circuit height, joining cross-wind at circuit height; then flying the circuit as per usual. I heard that in the U.S.A. overhead joins are rarely performed, and that it is usual to join direct into the traffic pattern. Any comments?
At big airports in the U.K. VFR traffic generally follows visual reference points along visual lanes, to join the visual traffic pattern; we can be asked to orbit within a certain area, but not fly a hold. Any differences?
Finally in the U.K. we have a national rating, called the IMC rating. This is kind of like a mini I.R., among other things teaches you to fly down the ILS etc. This rating does not transfer to other countries, so it would not be valid for me in the USA. My question is this: If you adhere to FAA PPL visibility requirement, is it legal to accept an ILS approach without an I.R. (assuming good visibility?).
This is my first port of call, I do plan to research this fully before flying in the U.S., and I sincerely thank you for any information.
(I am a US citizen, so I do not need to worry about visas)
Many thanks,
Tom.


12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 11 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3042 times:

Tom...
The easiest way for you to prepare for your visit and flight training in the US is to get your hands on a current copy of the FAR's/AIM (Federal Aviation Regulations and Airmans Information Manual). There are several sources where you can get them via mailorder or I would assume that you could also find the information on the 'net.

You're right, the R/T in the States tends to be less formal than other places. (Sometimes some of us get pretty sloppy over here.) There are also some subtle and some not so subtle differences in the regulations and operating procedures. All in all, there's probably too much to talk about on this forum without having to type so much as to get a bad case of finger cramps.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Jetguy


User currently offlineWoodreau From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1050 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (11 years 11 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3002 times:

A html link to an online copy of the Airman's Information Manual is here: http://www2.faa.gov/atpubs/ then click on the Airmans Information Manual link (it's the first one). But I find it hard to read on the computer and much prefer my own paper copy.

Keep in mind that it's not a regulation so it's not mandatory to use those procedures, but it's what we usually use, although some things in the AIM are from the regulations, so those parts are required.... Although I think this link http://www2.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/chap4toc.htm has what you're looking for in terms of R/T procedures and operating at airports.

The controller has no idea whether you have an instrument rating or not. So if you sound like you know what you are talking about (and don't act like a bonehead), then he will do what he can to accommodate your requests as long as workload permits. e.g. you call up a controller and then request an instrument approach to an airport, "requesting ILS 04L to JFK" (This specific request will probably get disapproved. so you have to ask for approaches at other less busy airports.) He'll want to know if it's a full procedure or just vectors to final, and what your intentions are, landing or go missed and shoot another approach, which approach do you want next, etc... Have your instructor go thru this with you (or you can also work on your instrument rating as well if you have time. or maybe check into seeing if you can get the instrument rating based on a foreign flight certificate.)

When I call up a controller (frequency congestion permitting) I keep the controller informed as to the next two approaches I desire, e.g. "requesting NDB-A to MVL full procedure, followed by ILS 17 to MPV, full stop." (or something similar). He'll usually approve the request give me missed approach instructions if he wants me to do something different than the published missed approach instructions.

If you're VFR and approaching an airport with a control tower, then the controller will tell you what to do, "report 3 mile left base for 13" so you don't do any overhead joins, (you'll probably freak him out if you do).... if you want to do pattern work, tell him, he'll accommodate if traffic allows. If you're approaching an airport without a control tower, you make your traffic call on the UNICOM/CTAF frequency state your intentions, maybe ask for a traffic advisory (you may or may not get an answer) You can overfly look at the segmented circle to figure out the winds and runway then enter the traffic pattern. I personally fly at least the downwind, base and final. If I am in position I'll fly something called the 45 entry, the procedure is explained in the AIM, but usually I'm not that strategically positioned and I'm on the other side, so I fly the midfield crosswind turning to downwind. But entering straight into downwind is acceptable.

If you go up to Canada though (I don't know where you're going to be flying), the airport traffic pattern (for airports without control towers) is different depending on whether you have a radio or not. (I forget what they call their frequencies, ATF (airport traffic freq?) meaning you don't have to have a radio to land here and can use no radio landing procedures, MTF (mandatory traffic freq?) meaning you have to have a radio to land at this particular airport and you can't use no radio landing procedures. But basically in Canada if the traffic pattern in a left pattern you cannot make a right turn anywhere in the traffic pattern even though you might need to make a right turn to join the left traffic pattern. You just overfly, then do all sorts of contorted left turns to get into the proper position to do the traffic pattern. It can be a pain sometimes.

In the US we're much more relaxed --flight procedures and R/T procedures. Just keep talking letting everyone know what you're doing and look out for the idiot who's not using the radio and decides to fly a straight in approach without flying the pattern.

But I think you can use ICAO procedures it should be okay, we do say "point" rather than "decimal" though.

Your multi-engine instructor should be able to fill you in on what we do here in the US as well...

(Apologize if I've typed too much... As Jetguy said, this just scratches the surface...)

Good Luck
Woodreau / KMVL



Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
User currently offlineTom775257 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 153 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (11 years 11 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2993 times:

Jetguy, Woodreau.

Thanks so much for the information. I shall use the information you have provided as a starting point for my research. I really do not want to turn up without a clue as to the differences between the JAA(CAA)/FAA regulations. My main concerns are obviously a) Safety. b) Staying legal.
I find it interesting that even in Europe, there are many aspects a pilot has to consider flying between member states of the joint aviation authority (JAA) which even share a common licence. It is even more surprising to me the number of differences between ICAO member states. I listened to an entertaining talk recently from a 737 captain in the U.K. that flies U.K. to Egypt. The impression I got was that it was fairly random whether you got to speak to an area controller in Egypt, quite often you just turn up at the aerodrome, and speak to the approach without contacting anyone in Egypt previously (or with any success!)
I do not want to waste forum bandwidth, so as you suggested I will read the publications you have named for now, and will get back to you helpful guys if any questions pop up.
Please forgive me if this post makes little sense, lets say I have been getting into the Xmas spirit this evening…
Thanks for you help,
and wishing you merry Xmas and a happy new-year from England.
p.s. Woodreau, you didn't type too much, all very interesting. Thanks.


User currently offlineInbound From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Sep 2001, 851 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2952 times:

I trained in canada and we were trained to read back all ATC instructions.

Now that I am back in Trinidad, where the majority of pilots have FAA licenses, I hear them saying "Affirm" as short for affirmative when certain questions are asked by ATC.
is that a new/normal US procedure now?

Tom, is there a website with information on the JAA license?
I hold both canadian and trinidadian CPLs but I'm coming to england on vacation in april and I'd like to do some private flying. I just want to know what I'll need to do to be able to fly there.




Maintain own separation with terrain!
User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2949 times:

Tom...
Woodreau gave you, for the most part, good advise. However, I've been waiting for someone to call him on a point that he made about accepting an IFR clearance. You asked the following question in your original post:
Finally in the U.K. we have a national rating, called the IMC rating. This is kind of like a mini I.R., among other things teaches you to fly down the ILS etc. This rating does not transfer to other countries, so it would not be valid for me in the USA. My question is this: If you adhere to FAA PPL visibility requirement, is it legal to accept an ILS approach without an I.R. (assuming good visibility?).


Woodreau gave the following reply: The controller has no idea whether you have an instrument rating or not. So if you sound like you know what you are talking about (and don't act like a bonehead), then he will do what he can to accommodate your requests as long as workload permits.

Bad advise. Whatever you do here in the States don't even think about asking for any type of IFR clearance without having an instrument rating in your pocket. The FAA will take a very dim view of it if (when) you're caught. If you plan a career in aviation this would be a very dumb move. Granted, it happens, but all it takes is enough of a screw up to arouse the controllers curiosity and you'll be getting a phone call or letter from the FAA. This is definitely not a good thing.

The closest thing that we have to the British IMC Rating is Special VFR and it is just that - special or reduced visibility VFR minimums. VFR pilots are allowed to fly an ILS or other instrument approach procedures in VFR conditions, but unless you are instrument rated, instrument current and in an IFR equipped and current airplane you can not accept an IFR clearance and you must remain VFR at all times. By the way, the pilot and aircraft requirements for night special VFR are the same as IFR - that ought to tell you something.

Get a copy of the AIM and FARs and you ought to be good to go. It wouldn't hurt to even get a copy of a Private Pilot training manual - it will also have the stuff you'll need to know. While you're at it, check out FAR Part 61:75. It explains how to get a US pilots license based on your UK license. It's really not that big of a deal, basically you just have to take another written test. (Hence my suggestion to get a US pilot training manual. You use it to bone up for the US written.)

Merry Christmas!

Jetguy


User currently offlineFlightSimFreak From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 720 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (11 years 11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2934 times:

Jetguy... I know that instrument students could fly instrument approaches without an instrument rating (obviously with an instrument rated CFII
)... But, I also know some instrument students who are trying to save money and take a pilot-rated friend with them so they can do hood work with a safety pilot... Can they shoot instrument approaches in that situation, if the safety pilot is not instrument rated? I ask because I plan on doing such with a friend who is going to get an instrument rating, and I would be acting as safety pilot, who is legally PIC and responsible for the safety of the flight...


Please provide FAR references to where you got your information.

Thanks.


User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2931 times:

Alex...
Merry Christmas!!!

I'm on vacation and don't have easy access to my printed copy of the FARs; but yes, non-instrument rated pilots may practice the various instrument approach procedures, arcs, holds, etc. BUT, IT MUST NOT BE DONE ON AN IFR CLEARANCE. The proper procedure would be to simply inform the controller that, for example, you want to fly a "practice ILS" in VFR conditions. The controller will reply that that you are cleared as requested and to remain VFR at all times - or words to that effect. What you don't want to do is to be ambigious in you request and have him issue you an IFR clearance with "hard" altitudes, headings, etc. If that happens and you accept it you've just violated the FARs and you'll be busted. Here's another thing to remember, it's "see and be seen" regardless whether you're VFR or IFR. When you're flying IFR in controlled airspace, ATC will provide spearation from other IFR traffic, but they have no obligation to point out VFR traffic.

If you have more questions I'll try and answer them.

Jetguy


User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (11 years 11 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2924 times:

Oops, I forgot to address your other question about the safety pilot...

Assuming that you are appropriately licensed and rated, you can log as PIC time, the time you are acting as safety pilot.

Jetguy


User currently offlineYbacpa From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1108 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (11 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2913 times:

Tom775257,
I can't speak too much to the technical aspects, but I would strongly recommend ensuring you have your visas set up well in advance. I don't know from personal experience, but I understand that, depending on your circumstances, this can be a very time consuming process.

Good luck!



SkyTeam: The alliance for third rate airlines finally getting their act together!
User currently offlineWoodreau From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1050 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (11 years 11 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2895 times:

Thanks to Jetguy for pointing out my error and clearing it up. I apologize if you read that you could accept the clearance if you were not instrument rated. It was not my intention to mislead you. We as pilots do have a responsibility of letting ATC know if that complying with an instruction causes us to violate FARs, e.g. going IMC under VFR.

Although I did want to point out that controllers really don't know if you have a instrument rating or not, it was not my intent to suggest that you could "pull the wool" over any controller eyes and get away with going IFR or accept an IFR clearance without the rating. There's more at stake than getting caught.

But read up the references and go over any concerns you have with your instructor when you get here and good luck in your endeavors.

Cheers  Smile
Woodreau / KMVL



Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
User currently offlineCovert From Ghana, joined Oct 2001, 1452 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2875 times:

Tom775257,
I can't speak too much to the technical aspects, but I would strongly recommend ensuring you have your visas set up well in advance. I don't know from personal experience, but I understand that, depending on your circumstances, this can be a very time consuming process.


Last paragraph, Tom775257;


This is my first port of call, I do plan to research this fully before flying in the U.S., and I sincerely thank you for any information.
(I am a US citizen, so I do not need to worry about visas)
Many thanks,
Tom.



thank goodness for TCAS !
User currently offlineTom775257 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 153 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2858 times:

Thanks all,
I was interested re: ILS purely for practice in VMC; not actually flying the ILS in IMC.
Inbound: In the U.K. we have the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), which is a member of the Joint Aviation Authority (JAA). Although we get issued JAA licenses; we get them issued through the CAA. I suspect it would be best to contact the CAA, their web address is www.caa.co.uk
If you contact the FCL (flight crew licensing) they should be able to help you out. From memory I believe there are some conversion issues if you want to fly a 'G' registered aircraft in the U.K. with a non-JAA license. If you have a CPL I think you should be fine to fly privately; I believe if you have an IR you will be given a U.K. IMC rating...worth checking on though. I will have a look around to see if I can find any specific details...
Happy new year all,
Tom.


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