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FMC Route Planning  
User currently offlineTOGA From Ireland, joined Jul 2001, 31 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5536 times:

Can I ask the experts the following in the context of a modern cockpit.

Where a flight plan has been entered into the FMC with a S.I.D., all the en-route waypoints etc. and the destination STAR, what happens, let's say, when there is a change of operating runway at the destination airport as a result of wind change for example, or where ATC decides to vector various headings for traffic reasons. Does the pilot always re-programme into the FMC a new STAR to conform to the change, or does he simply abandon the flight plan, switch his navigation display screen to VOR or ILS display mode and follow the new ATC vectors which he has just received until established on the localiser ?.



14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMb339 From Italy, joined Jun 2001, 238 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5433 times:

On Airbus' FMGS, if there's a change of the runway, you can simply choose another runway on FLIGHT PLAN page (also the STAR you can change).

If the ATC gives you vector to establish on the active runway, generally the pilot doesn't use managed navigation (FMS) but selected navigation, so the FMGS' flight plan is not more used.


User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5429 times:

On the Boeing 757/767 (and most other Boeings like B744 I imagine) you can change the arrival runway on the DEP/ARR page of the FMC. Once you select the new runway the available STARS for that runway are displayed and you can also select a new STAR, which will supersede the original entered arrival route (if different).

Pretty easy so no need to start talking about switching to VOR or ILS display modes to fly a STAR - that's scary talk!!  Wow!



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineDC-10 Levo From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 3432 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5421 times:

Could someone explain what STARS is?

Thanks!

DC-10


User currently offlineMb339 From Italy, joined Jun 2001, 238 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5409 times:

STAR is the acronym of Standard Terminal Arrival Route.

The STARs are used for the transition from the enroute phase to approach phase.

An Airport may be served from several STAR and each of them have a name (BENTO 1A, BENTO 1B, BENTO 1C...). The difference among these Star is the Initial fix where you begin the STAR.

Hope to be understandable

mb339


User currently offlineEAC_732 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5400 times:

Hello,

I'm I right in saying that on the Boeing 747-400 you can even tell the FMC what gate your at? I'm not sure if the Airbus FMGS has this function.

Regards
EAC_732


User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5390 times:

I have seen this feature on the 747-400, yes. I believe it is for assistance in entering INS Co-ordinates (i.e. the pilot doesn't have to type them in, provided he checks the FMC-stored lat/long for that gate is correct). Saves all of 25 seconds tops I guess...


I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineAM From Mexico, joined Oct 1999, 589 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5374 times:
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Rick767, what do you do in Cancun (MMUN)?

If I remember correctly, there are no STARS there, and I think IFR arrivals don't precisely receive a whole lot of radar vectoring, so most is done via VOR/DME arrival routes (ie, overfly an airway-based fix, make a DME arc which is based at CUN VOR, until LOC interception)

Although not STARS, are these procedures on your 767's FMC database?

Thanks!



"... for there you have been and there you will long to return."
User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5345 times:

AM,

There are indeed arrival routes for Cancun (MMUN) from the B881 airway via COTOY which route inbound towards the VOR then take up a clockwise DME arc at 15 miles round to the South-East for a VOR approach to Runway 30. [COTOY1 ARRIVAL]

Alternatively for Runway 12 the DME arc takes us from SAMED on the B881 in an anti-clockwise direction at 13 miles from the VOR round to the North East to shoot the ILS for Runway 12.
[SAMED 1 ARRIVAL]

All of the above is programmed into the FMC (even the DME arc) so can all be flown in LNAV, though once we get "round the corner" and turn inbound for whichever runway, the flying pilot must switch to raw data on his HSI (expanded scale normally) for VOR or ILS as appropriate for the approach, while the non-flying pilot normally keeps the MAP display.



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineMb339 From Italy, joined Jun 2001, 238 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5347 times:

@ Rick767

Is normally the DME arc selected from the FMS database or you can create one in your FMS flight plan?

Why some airports use the DME arcs instead of common procedure?

Thanks



User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6601 posts, RR: 55
Reply 10, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5329 times:

DME arcs are difficult to create. I am sure you can do one, but off the top of my head, I would have no idea how to program one!

As for Bay numbers, Rick is correct in that we use them when initialising the FMS position. We simply check that the co-ordinates are correct with the bay number, and the co-ordinates last known by the aircraft.


User currently offlineTOGA From Ireland, joined Jul 2001, 31 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5320 times:

Hi Rick767

Thanks for your reply and sorry to be pedantic. Surely not every arrival to an airport is via a STAR.
What I was curious to know was where ATC decides to vector in an approach that differs from the STAR, does the pilot still leave his Navigation Display in Map display mode, which depicts the original planned STAR even though it will not now be used ?.


User currently offlineJetskipper From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5319 times:

On the EMB-145, it is quite simple to change the runway, approach, as well as the STAR transition to the approach. At most the airports in the US the STAR will end 20 to 25 miles away from the airport and have you at an altitude of approximately 10,000 to 11,000. From this point TRACON vectors you onto the final approach course, whether it be a ILS, GPS, VOR, RNAV, or any other approach. In the EMB-145, if the approach is an ILS we have to transfer from FMS navigation to standard navigation using the LOC and GS. If it is a GPS, RNAV, or a NDB or VOR approach with a GPS overlay, we can continue using the FMS for course guidance. However, we will use a heading mode while getting vectors by ATC to the final approach course. For approaches using a DME ARC, Procedure Turn, or any other type of enroute transition to the approach , the FMS will already have the various IAFs (Initial Approach Fixes) programmed into the system. All you have to do is select the specific IAF and the FMS will automatically program the various DME ARC, Procedure Turn, et cetera. It makes it quite easy to maintain positional awareness, and accurate course guidance.

User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5311 times:

Maybe I can add a bit here.

It's up to the crew to decide whether to leave the route on the MFD once ATC starts giving vectors. I almost always leave it up because of the enhanced situational awareness it provides. On our aircraft, we usually also overlay the TAWS display and the TCAS information with it on the #2 MFD. Very neat capabilities - good stuff!

Jetguy


User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5327 times:

"Surely not every arrival to an airport is via a STAR.
What I was curious to know was where ATC decides to vector in an approach that differs from the STAR, does the pilot still leave his Navigation Display in Map display mode, which depicts the original planned STAR even though it will not now be used?"


Generally speaking, yes both pilots will remain in MAP mode on the HSI when ATC begin vectoring, even though it will normally be away from the planned arrival route (magenta line). As Jetguy stated, the MAP display provides us with far better spatial awareness and to some extent helps us predict the sequence of vectors we are about to be given by ATC (for a radar vectored ILS approach, for example).

Only when turning onto the approach course is it required that the Flying Pilot change his HSI display to ILS (or VOR if conducting a VOR approach). The Non-flying pilot will stay in MAP as I mentioned earlier. This display "split" is still recommended if the crew are flying a visual approach, with the raw data as a backup and also for guidance.



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
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