AM From Mexico, joined Oct 1999, 590 posts, RR: 2 Posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2634 times:
A topic was posted in the civil aviation forum regarding short and long taxi times, so I was wondering, are there any "special" checklist procedures for flights when the distance from brake release to the active runway is just too short?
Maybe an A320 or 757 wouldn't have a problem with that, since checklists are very short and have very few elements, but what about a 737 or MD-80? I guess one just sits at the ramp for an extra 4 or 5 minutes performing all pre-takeoff procedures and checklists, is that right?
Examples of this kind of scenario:
- LAX RWY24L, leaving from a Southwest or America West gate closest to the runway.
- MSY RWY28, leaving from concourse B, gates 2, 4, or 6.
- SAN RWY09, again, when leaving from a gate very close to the full length.
- BOS RWY15R, leaving from Terminal E.
- SAT RWY03, from the Southwest terminal.
Or how about short taxi-in times:
- BUR, landing RWY08
- FLL, landing RWY09L, parking at the US Airways gates.
Thanks in advance.
"... for there you have been and there you will long to return."
Rick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2584 times:
There is no cutting corners, until all checklists are complete the aircraft will continue to wait at the holding point. ATC should ask whether the crew is "ready for departure" prior to assigning a line-up or takeoff clearance, and pilots will always reject this if more time is needed to complete checks.
Often on initial contact with a tower frequency we will inform the tower we need a couple of minutes at the holding point to complete checks if we expect that requirement.
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Fritzi From United Arab Emirates, joined Jun 2001, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2574 times:
If the pilots takes off without having finished the checklists, they should have their licenses revoked immediately. As Rick767 said there is no cutting corners when dealing with checklists, especially you are carrying pax!
AM From Mexico, joined Oct 1999, 590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2546 times:
Thanks for your replies.
Rick, about how long (aprox.) would you say it takes you to make pre-takeoff procedures and run checklists before departure on the 757/767?
I'm surprised at how practical your aircraft is when it comes to this kind of things. I have an old (February 2001) AeroMexico 757 Normal Procedures Checklist (I guess they use a separate one for the 767 at AMX), and there's only 5 checklist elements to run through between engine start and takeoff. The checklist is in spanish, (*) means I don't know the correct english term so I wrote the literal translation.
Jhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2506 times:
Just curious; when did the airlines really start making a big deal out of written checklists? As I understand, this hasn't always been the case. We in GA often use the memory aids, such as GUMP, in lieu of the written checklists. I always teach my student pilots that it is a good practice to make maximum use of the written checklists, especially if they want to go on to the airlines. But on the flip side of the coin, picking up a checklist in a plane like a Cessna 172 keeps the pilots head in the cockpit for a longer period of time at critical times (such as the traffic pattern) when they should be looking for traffic. Thus, I believe it should be done prior to entering the traffic pattern.
Along these lines, there are a number of philosophies when it comes to doing the checklist. There's the read and do method, the challenge and response method and the flow pattern method (where you just do everything from memory and then follow up with the checklist). Does anyone care to mention the pros and cons of each method and which you prefer (or are required to use). Thanks!
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AJ From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2395 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2493 times:
Our after start procedures are conducted with the ground engineer still 'plugged in', and the time it takes to run the checklist is the same time it takes for him/her to remove the steering pin and walk out into our sight. The last item on the checklist is 'Ground Equipment', we sight the engineer and the steering pin and the response is 'Clear'. Taxi clearance is then sought.
During taxi it is the safety brief in the cabin that takes the longest, with our procedures requiring the CSM to advise the flightdeck that the cabin is ready. After that the PA 'Cabin crew be seated for takeoff' is given (depending on aircrat type) and the clock started to allow the crew one minute to be seated. The checklist is run, 'Flaps' - '5/15', 'Cabin Report' - 'Recieved'. After that minute we are ready to go.
On runway 16R in Sydney, 27 in Melbourne and a few others we may have been at the holding point for several minutes before this procedure is complete.
AAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3475 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2472 times:
...but what about a 737 or MD-80? I guess one just sits at the ramp for an extra 4 or 5 minutes performing all pre-takeoff procedures and checklists, is that right?
For the MD80, AA had (when I flew it) a "quick-turn" before starting engines checklist, but that was only for use when the same crew that brought in the plane was taking it out again. If you were real good you could save a whole 30 seconds running the "quick-turn" vs. the standard checklist. Once you pushed back and/or started engines, everything else was a single standard checklist. All other AA planes I've flown utilized a single checklist for all normal operations.
LAX RWY24L, leaving from a Southwest or America West gate closest to the runway.
Not sure about other airlines, but LAX Ground Control requires AA planes leaving T3 to have all checklists complete prior to calling for initial taxi. That means sitting on the ramp awaiting the 5 minute long bi- or tri-lingual pax safety video to complete. You can then call for taxi and get in line to wait (average 5-10 minutes) for 24L. The MD90 had no video player so the FA's (mostly ex-QQ) had it done about the time it took to get unhooked from the ground equipment. In 1+ years of lots of LAX/24L/MD90 flights the average time from pushback start to takeoff roll start was 5 minutes. In 1+ years of plenty (a lot less than MD90) LAX/24L/737 flights the average time is 12-13 minutes. Still, AA will not eliminate the safety video for fear of an FAA fine [$11,000 for each misspoken phrase last year].
SAN RWY09, again, when leaving from a gate very close to the full length.
SAN has no published procedure for gates near the departure end. The ground controller simply doesn't permit you to pushback until he's got a place near the runway for you (very limited space). Gates farther away get pushback clearances earlier, but are held at various points along the single parallel taxiway to make room for other departures and all arrivals. Unless you are the first to depart that morning, there is plenty of time to complete all normal checklists (even AA's 5 minute video). The single biggest problem at SAN is not the single runway, but rather the lack of ground space --terminal gates, parking spots and especially taxiways.
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