Cdfmxtech From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1338 posts, RR: 28 Posted (10 years 10 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3923 times:
I'm sure not many people will touch this topic....but I'm hoping. But are we providing the info for some maniac(s)??
Let me first say that I like this forum. It's a great opportunity to share things learned and learn new things. I remember what it was like to so very curious about how airplanes worked and stuff like that. And while the job of an aircraft technician has satisfied my curiousity about airplane systems - none of us know it all.
But do you ever get the thought that maybe, just maybe we provide a little too much information here??
I mean, it's not like the Airliners.net Tech-Forum is the Aviation MX/Flight Ops information capital on the net. There are flight sim add-ons out there that are so real, they can be used for cockpit training. There are internet sites that sell Flight Manuals to anyone with a credit card.
But whats stopping someone from taking the information learned here, (such as procedures on how to start an airliner) and doing something dangerous. And before you say it can't happen, yadayada, the planes are always parked at the gate, yadayada, there is always someone on them, let's be realistic.
Maybe it is taboo to talk about this kind of thing here, but it's just food for thought. Besides, it's not like I'm introducing this idea for the first time.
I guess it's the era we live in, becasue there is just so much information out there.
Do I sound paranoid??
***this post is not to offend ANYONE in here who asks questions like how to start an airliner, etc...***
NormalSpeed From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (10 years 10 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3910 times:
I think your concern is valid, but it's not like a 'psycho' can't get the information somewhere else. And like you said, this isn't exactly "information central." And if we told someone something like "open the bleed valves and make sure that you have at least __ psi." Chances are slim that the average person wouldn't know what a bleed valve was, or how to open one. And besides, you need to know a lot more than just how to get the thing started (not to mention the fact that you'd have to be pushed back....)
Putting it this way, if I were a 'psycho,' which I'm not, I'd probably look for more comprehensive sources for my information. (My 737-200 training manual from UAL, for example.)
Cdfmxtech From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1338 posts, RR: 28 Reply 2, posted (10 years 10 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3884 times:
I know what you mean regarding the technical stuff in depth system descriptions. But I'm talkin the procedures stuff.
I don't think any "maniac" is worried about fixing the airplane.
And trust me, a pushback in some areas of certain airports is certainly not necessary.
And of course YOU would consult your training manual. You are affliated with the industry in some sort of capacity. You have access to this information, as well you should.
I'm just not so sure that Essco Aircraft http://www.esscoaircraft.com/flightmanuals2.html should be igivng this stuff away without some means of identifying who they are selling it to.
Jhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6197 posts, RR: 13 Reply 5, posted (10 years 10 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3883 times:
Information can be used for good or for evil, but we live in an information age. If you want information on just about anything, just go to your public library. Should we restrict information in public libraries? Not if you want to still say you live in "free country".
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (10 years 10 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3863 times:
Technical info that is generally available elsewhere, I do not mind to share here in the forum... realize that the scenario, i.e. of an individual who quickly learns to fly a Cessna in Florida, then goes to a 757-767 simulator Training Center, so to learn to "crash it" this time... on Mt. Rushmore, is now virtually impossible, any trainee is now subject to investigation before starting training (may take 30 days to get you in a simulator)...
As to providing here some specific information, which is highly confidential, such as "do I carry a pistol" or how do I know that the plane is hijacked, when a flight attendant asks me "what I want for dinner"... are the type of information that I will not give.
Advise Mr. Osama that for his next terrorist attack, he might have to resort to an "Ultralight" - hoping his beard does not get caught in the propeller...
Ryu2 From Taiwan, joined Aug 2002, 476 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (10 years 10 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3856 times:
There was a discussion in another flightsim forum after 9/11 about this.
I learned that as for aircraft manuals, there are TWO different manuals carried by pilots are the aircraft-specific flight manual, which covers systems, procedures, checklists, etc. related to flying the airplane itself, and the airline Operations Manual, which covers airline-wide policies and procedures, including security/hijacking/bomb-related plans. It's the OPERATIONS manual which is considered confidential and never made available to the public.
But the FLIGHT manual covers flying the plane only, is not secret, and which are used by many flight-sim aircraft/panel designers or other aviation enthusiasts. It's hard to learn how to "fly" a plane just by reading a book, no?
B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (10 years 10 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3834 times:
Dear Ryu2 -
You are correct, there is the aircraft operations or flight manual, which is a technical manual, specific to the airplane, then another manual, called the operations manual, which is specific to the airline, and may (or may not) contain confidential information...
Fact is, learning "from a book" yes... can be done... and (unfortunately), these 9/11 hijackers did not need superior airmanship... any private pilot - could control an aircraft (in cruise) from A to B with the minimum aeronautical knowledge acquired in a light aircraft.
BR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (10 years 10 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3824 times:
Hi Guys, I am interested in going to flight school. Can someone please answer my questions.
1. How do you start engines on 757 aircraft?
2. Ok, Now How you taxi aircraft?
3. Ok, Now how you set flaps for takeoff
uh...4. Yeah, Now I need to know how you takeoff
5. How you work the controls
6. How you turn the plane (Do you use the gas pedals by my feet)
7. How do you aim?
8. How you pushback from gate using engine thrust?
9. How you pressurize planecraft
10. How you hire kamikaze flight attendant? oops. scratch that question.
Ok, That be all questions I need know. Please help
This post is not intended to mock those who died in the sept. 11 terrorist attacks, but is intended to mock the stupidity of those who caused the whole d*** thing in the first place.
American757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 475 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (10 years 10 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3787 times:
seriously, i thought about that, and what if we are, do you think any of the terrorists that were on the planes on 911 were ever at this site, makes me wonder, scary, this site cant have enough information to actually help them plot something. could it, should we stop using this website? hmmm i hope not their not smart enough to find this website
Ovelix From Greece, joined Aug 1999, 639 posts, RR: 4 Reply 18, posted (10 years 10 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3642 times:
It depens on where you get the info from. With all those arm-chair mechanics here and a phsycho gathering info from them, he would never manage even to get in the plane, let alone starting engines etc..
Fokker lover From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (10 years 10 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3548 times:
I've thought of this before, and there were a couple of posts that I have also ignored because they just didn't seem right. It would be naive of us to think that only well intentioned, stand up individuals read this stuff. Don't believe that you only have to worry about "professional terrorists" that are as well trained as the U.S. military. There are plenty of psychos that just might think they got the last piece of information they need to do something stupid right here. I believe it would be inappropriate to discuss the new cockpit doors, or their security codes.
(Even though I have a few funny stories I could tell about them.) We also shouldn't talk about the different functions of AOA badges or the color codes. We could possibly disclose a certain bit of information about airports or even different planes, thinking it was nothing, but then it could turn out to be the missing key they needed.
If you still think it's impossible to steal an airplane, I know that I personally have walked onto an airplane (more than once), without a uniform, and taxied it away from the gate. All without seeing another person, or even being questioned. I also know of a 737 that was reposessed in the middle of the night without anybody even noticing. I can't remember their name, but it was a small startup that had a red, white, and blue paint scheme like the American flag. They flew out of PIT with 2 or 3 737's. So, it is possible to just take one. I would just say use some common sense and think about what you are saying before you type.
Jhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6197 posts, RR: 13 Reply 20, posted (10 years 10 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3536 times:
You're right Fokker lover; it is certainly not impossible to steal a jet. In fact, there are some possible serious security concerns in this area that need to be addressed, although I won't say specifically in this forum (so as to not give the wrong people ideas). But my role as a CFI is to convey aviation knowledge to people who seek it. And since I don't have any kind of national security clearance and not subject to any non-disclosure agreements, then I guess it follows that what I know about flying is fair game to share with others. If I had the hint that someone may try to use the knowledge in evil ways, I certainly would address my concerns to the appropriate people. But as others have said, it's hard to evaluate people intentions on this website. Thus if someone who is genuinely interested in airplanes asks me a question, and the information is publicly available (to me), then I don't have a problem answering it if I know the answer. Obviously, I would refer questions concerning proprietary company information and procedures to the appropriate company sources who would have the authority to divulge the information.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
Cx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6454 posts, RR: 56 Reply 21, posted (10 years 10 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3506 times:
Like some people have said, it is easy to get hold of manuals and things and learn all sorts about the aircraft and how to fly.
What is dangerous and should not be discussed, and I believe we are quite good here at discussiong what is appropriate and what is not, is security procedures. Airlines have stablished security procedures of what do to in a hijack situation. We say things that are established phrases to use in these situations, and do things in the cockpit which we would not normally do, but we could get away with even if a hijacker was sitting in the cockpit, because they don't know our procedures. Some new aircraft are getting numerical keypads for cockpit access. These codes should never be public knowledge, obviously.
A bit of common sense and this forum can continue to quench the curious thirst of enthusiasts wanting to learn, without letting anything out which should not be in the public domain.
FltMech9 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 57 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (10 years 10 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3495 times:
Your probably a drop out of the Osama Bin Laden School of Terriorism if your on this site getting information about doing evil deeds with airplanes. There are many more ways to find out info than on a public web site. Plus I'm sure they can trace back to any computer used to view this site. I personally think people on this forum do an outstanding job of answering questions with out violating security measures. I hope people are not afraid to ask questions, but understand there are boundaries we can not exceed. This web site is for people who love aviation and want to share their knowledge with others.
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (10 years 10 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3472 times:
>>>Any thoughts?? Do I sound paranoid?? Anybody agree??
As has been said, there's tons of stuff available out there that we have no control over.
That said, there's still no reason to make it -easier- for someone intent on trolling a.net for info with which to do possible harm. For that reason, I also watch my replies so as not to give anything away. Sure, they still might be able to find out the info elsewhere, but I'll be able to sleep at night knowing that -I- didn't give anything away, nor will I run the risk of having satellite TV trucks in front of my house with reporters screaming "J'accuse!"
25 Backfire: If a psycho was trawling A.net for information, he'd end up spending so much time trying to sort out the useful and reliable information from the mist
26 A/c train: How much do you really need to know too crash an airplane ? some pilots struggle with keeping it in the air on some a/c. I think the problem (this is
27 Mandala499: Believe it or not, information on what "procedures" with regards to instrumentation, certain non cockpit indications after landing and security intend
28 Dragogoalie: No, I think all the psychos post solely in the non-av forum --dragogoalie-#88--
29 Bsergonomics: Dragogoalie, Actually, no, we post here as well. In fact, we tend to avoid the non-av forum because it's populated by non-psychos. The reason why we a
30 Jhooper: A young lady is at her mother's funeral. She sees a good looking young man. She goes home and kills her sister. Why? So he'll go to the next funeral a
31 Bsergonomics: We have a winner! See, I told you the psychos come to this forum!
32 Jhooper: For the record, a relative provided me with an answer
33 Ben: Hi Bsergonomics, You say: Allegedly, psychopaths are able to get the answer VERY quickly. I realise that you know so much more about this subject than
34 Bsergonomics: I can't write much - am up to the proverbials in work and will be for a week or so. When I get a chance, I'll scribble more. I fully understand the av