United_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 6692 posts, RR: 10 Posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5087 times:
I was just wondering how they keep it ice free? Do they use salt? I can't see them using salt on $30million dollar planes.
'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 28885 posts, RR: 67 Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5059 times:
Plow it, sweep it, sand it.
Actually they either use a liquid de-icer which is pretty much the same stuff that is sprayed on the wings. Or else they will spread Urea on the runways which is a synthetic version of the chemical that gives Urine it's name (No, I am not making that up)
Never use salt. Salt eats aluminum up.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
Woodreau From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 810 posts, RR: 8 Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5046 times:
My roommate's an Air Force civil engineer (who does maintenance on the runway) but she says that very expensive urea is used to deice the runways. I hope she's just pulling my leg.
No salt it would corrode the aircraft very badly.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from surviving bad judgement.
United_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 6692 posts, RR: 10 Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5036 times:
Thanks! Salt is nasty stuff. You should see waht it does to cars up here! That's why I don't drive my good car in it!
'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
Woodreau From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 810 posts, RR: 8 Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5042 times:
We musta posted at the same time.
She wasn't pulling my leg then?
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from surviving bad judgement.
PPGMD From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2453 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5025 times:
Wonder what happen when they run out of that stuff, do they liquer up all the line boys and drive them down the runway?
Saintsman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 2065 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4528 times:
I remember when I was in the RAF in the late seventies we used to use a Snow Blow to get rid of snow from the runways. It was a rig that attached to a fuel bowser and had two old jet engines strapped to it (I think that they were ex Meteor engines). It was one of our winter duties to sit in the control box between the two engines as it was being driven along. We also had a similar one to clear the taxiways that was sideways mounted. Nobody liked those duties. Too noisy and too cold.
Contact_tower From Norway, joined Sep 2001, 536 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4505 times:
Simple:
Plow-sweep-blow!
When that is done it is eighter treated with cemicals or it is sanded.
Cemicals only work down to a certain temprature, "urea" which is what we use here works down to about -6C. It it gets colder they sand the runway.
There are a number of different cemicals available, "Urea" has been the mainstay, but because adverse effects on the enviroment, "Safeway" and "Clearway" has been introduced.
Here in Norway only the airforce is permitted to use Urea.
FredT From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 2179 posts, RR: 29 Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4475 times:
At an air force base here (way up in the subarctics) they field modded and old J32 jet. Put the engine controls in an old truck cab on top of the aircraft, removed the wings and put a great big diffuser on the back of the plane, directing the exhaust down on the surface. Then towed it over the runway. Supposedly worked like a charm.
Today, they probably spend ten years designing some $4.2 billion contraption which works just the same...
Cheers,
Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
United_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 6692 posts, RR: 10 Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4464 times:
Now that a jet engine was mentioned,I remember watching the beginning of 1970's "Airport" movie when they showed them plowing the runway,then using a flame of some kind to melt it.
'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
ATCT From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1881 posts, RR: 50 Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4379 times:
Down here at Finleyville, we plow, then we just let the sun do its work. No sand/salt/"urea" for us. But we're just a bunch of "Cessna Drivers" (Go Piper!) so no one cares here about ice. We just put ski's on and land on the snow
Real pilots fly planes that take and measure oil in gallons
Night_Flight From United States of America, joined May 1999, 156 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4250 times:
In busier airports, I think another way that runways are kept ice-free is by the continuous jet exhaust (which we all know is hot) from arriving and departing aircraft. This may help to melt ice to a certain extent.
Another area where you usually don’t find too much ice is at the departure end of a runway. When aircraft are being sprayed and deiced prior to takeoff, there is usually quite a bit of excess deicing fluid on the surfaces. Once the aircraft begins to accelerate, the excess fluid falls onto the runway and indirectly melts the ice on the runway.
I have also seen the modified jet engine used to melt snow on railroad tracks. A small maintenance cart has the jet engine mounted on the back and it’s simply pointed towards the snow and ice to melt it.
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 28885 posts, RR: 67 Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4248 times:
Yes Woodreau,
They really do use Urea.
Not sure entirely on the process to make it but you need a supply of natural gas and some other gas.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
Jetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4220 times:
Urea is a pelletized form of nitrogen. It was originally derived from urine (Hence "Urea") In other words, it is basically dried cow piss. It can now be manufactured from natural gas.
Word of caution...
For those of you who aren't familiar with winter operations and are at airports which use urea for ice removal DO NOT eat yellow snow.
Radarbeam From Canada, joined Mar 2002, 1309 posts, RR: 6 Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4156 times:
Here in CYHU they just plow, sweep and blow. It's always fun to watch those big truck thundering down the runway pretty fast and blowing the snow 20 feet in the air.
Kubla From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4027 times:
A bit off topic, but urea is manufactured by combining ammonia and carbon dioxide at high temperature and pressure. Methane, or natural gas, is used in the manufacture of ammonia and also as fuel to produce the temperatures required.
Urea can be stored in granular form, which makes it a popular fertilizer. As an ice melter, it works exactly the same way as salt does, by raising the solute concentration in the water and lowering the freezing point. As others have mentioned, it will not corrode metal like salt does.
One of the environmental problems with urea as an ice melter is that it tends to run off and get into surface water. The result is the same thing that happens when you dump any soluble nitrogen fertilizer into surface water: the risk of eutrophication. Basically, what happens is the extra N stimulates growth of microbes to the point where they use all the available oxygen in the water, and then fish and other aerobic lifeforms start to die.
Slashd0t From Canada, joined Dec 2002, 218 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3952 times:
I was always under the impression that the runways were heated underneith them and that was partially why it is so expensive to build a runway.. I could be completely out to lunch here...
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 28885 posts, RR: 67 Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3939 times:
Make mine a Bacon Sandwich....
Thanks Kubla for the manufacturing process.
I had heard it before but couldn't remember for the life of me how they did it.
They have a plant down in Nikiski, Alaska where ANC gets all their Urea from.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
AFC_ajax00 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 775 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3932 times:
This might be alittle off topic but I was looking through an old National Geographic from 1979 I think and there was a infared picture of an Orly runway, and every 10-20 meters I think there were jet engines placed used to get rid of fog, it was quite cool. Not that there's alot of snow/ice in Paris but perhaps this is a system used at other airports to keep runways ice free?
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward; for there you long to return
Leezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4035 posts, RR: 58 Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3868 times:
Just think that the next time you see the Pope kissing the ground at an airport, that at some point the chances are that ground has been sprayed with a chemical form of Piss !!
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
United_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 6692 posts, RR: 10 Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3858 times:
Is it true IAD's longest runway is heated? Or am I misinformed??????
'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
25 Mirrodie: Now that a jet engine was mentioned,I remember watching the beginning of 1970's "Airport" movie when they showed them plowing the runway,then using a
26 L-188: They have gotten away from using the jet engines at airport. They usually where made from old straight pipe jets and where terribly noisy. On the rail
27 Jet-lagged: A couple years ago I got snowed in an extra night in Changchun, China, way up northeast in Manchuria. The next day dawned bright and sunny, but as the
28 LY744: "they used a jet engine mounted on a heavy truck to blast the snow and ice off the concrete" Method of choice for the Soviet Air Force (and its succes
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