LH526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2257 posts, RR: 17 Posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4045 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Hi
I experienced the following several times while fliyng as pax on B747 (Both on -200 and -400, so no matter if OG or NG)
At rotate, shortly before or after liftoff, a loud "bang" comes from near the gear bay area that sounds like the gear depressing in their suspension. What is that sound? Maybe some engineers can shed some light on it!
Thanks
Mario
LH526
Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
XFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3954 posts, RR: 36 Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3953 times:
Essentialpowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2 Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3933 times:
Happens on the 737 as well- no gear doors.
Sounds like the extension of the struts...one can't hear the nose gear strut either, unless you're in the cockpit. The snubbers are loud as well.
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29350 posts, RR: 62 Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3914 times:
Usually it is the sound of the oleo's hitting the full extension point at takeoff.
But gear doors closing also make a pretty loud bang too.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
Mr.BA From Singapore, joined Sep 2000, 3423 posts, RR: 23 Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3918 times:
My enducated guess... maybe it's the gears 'dropping' back to it's tilting position after the plane leaves the ground? So it's like... 'straight' dropping back to it's 'hanging' or tilting position.
Essentialpowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3914 times:
L-188-
Read what people have posted....
"Usually it is the sound of the oleo's hitting the full extension point at takeoff."
A/c landing gear assemblies that have doors, or boggies, are dampened...
B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3836 times:
I would go along with "sound of the oleo hitting the full extension" as the reason of the loud "bang" which occurs at lift-off of the 747...
xxx
According to loadmasters - who fly in cargo airplanes as additional crewmembers - they tell me it is quite noticeable in empty 747 cargo planes - in passenger airplanes, the noise is reduced due to carpets - etc...
xxx
I doubt gear doors would be that noisy, the body gear doors are hinged and quite slow to close, or... to open...
xxx
(s) Skipper
Leej From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 287 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3802 times:
LH526
I posted a similar question about a year or so ago - I'll have a look for it. I know exactly what you mean - it happens as the gear leaves the tarmac. As Skipper says, it's the gear dropping to full extension once the weight is off.
Cheers!
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29350 posts, RR: 62 Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3672 times:
I did read the other posts
Now read what I wrote Essential Power.
Usually it is the sound of the oleo's hitting the full extension point at takeoff.
But gear doors closing also make a pretty loud bang too.
Line #1. The sound of the Oleo's extending. I agree with the majority on that one.
Line #2. Not with the Majority but it has been my experience that you can hear those doors closing on 727's and MD-80's. Along with the change in wind noise because the doors aren't haning out in the breeze.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
Essentialpowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3650 times:
You repeated what I wrote; I said it was the struts. I made no ref on closing gear doors, b/c:
1. 737s, for ex, don't even have them (on the mains, that the pax could hear)
2. Gear doors don't close "At rotate, shortly before or after liftoff..." but a measureable time after rotation.
If a poin has been made by someone, there is no need to repeat it...so you should read other's posts.
Monocleman From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 137 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3627 times:
I guess I'm pretty out of it, but "oleo's"? Is that just another word for shock absorbers and struts?
KAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1955 posts, RR: 37 Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3615 times:
Yes, oleo or "oleo-aero" as I've sometimes heard it called, refers to the suspension system for the aircraft's landing gear. The system uses a combination of oil and air to provide shock absorption; when there is no pressure being exerted on the suspension by the ground due to the weight of the airplane, the strut extends to maximum length. It is quite likely an aircraft with a relatively heavy undercarriage would produce a noise when the struts hit the stops after liftoff.
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29350 posts, RR: 62 Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3589 times:
I didn't mention anything about 737's did I? And neither did the original poster. I just stated that you can hear the doors closing on those two types.
Electra's also have gear doors but I have never heard them closing on those airframes. That is probably because there are way the hell out in the Nacelle.
Go and watch mechanics swing the landing gear on a Learjet sometimes. Trust me. The landing gear doors do close up a with a pretty good bang.
Again I agreed with the majority, and offered a second possibility.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
FredT From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 2184 posts, RR: 26 Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3546 times:
I have to say I’m not buying the oleo extension explanation. First off, the struts have dampers. The purpose of dampers is to prevent rapid compression or extension of the struts. Second, suspension systems tend to have bump rubbers at the end of their travel to prevent the stress of metal to metal contact when the struts hit either the full extension or the full compression stops. These would reduce any potential ‘bang’ to a jolt.
And even if you had landing gear struts without dampers, the aircraft does not come off the runway instantaneously. The gear struts would extend at the same rate as the rate at which aircraft lifts off the runway. Is that fast enough to cause a bang at the moment when the wheels leave the tarmac? Tilting bogies would also soften the process.
On the other hand, I have been running landing gears up and down and heard (and felt!) very noticeable bangs - from the landing gear doors. In fact, with one aircraft you couldn’t run the gear at full speed or it’d jump off the jacks. This has been fighters, but with the big gear doors on commercial aircraft the velocity of the edge of the door farthest from the hinges will be quite high, if you want the gear doors to close at any noticeable rate.
I’m not sure here, been a while since I got close and personal with a 737 - but don’t they still have gear doors? They just don’t cover the wheels themselves.
I’ll bow down to conclusive technical evidence, but I am not convinced yet.
Cheers,
Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3538 times:
Dear Fred -
A couple of years ago, we did a "gear swing" on one of our 747s at the airport, a maintenance procedure after a "D" check... I had "invited" myself with a videocam to tape a gear retraction for ground training audio visual... Since the airplane stood high, to keep the main gear off the ground, to permit retraction, the gear itself was far from being noisy during repeated retraction and extention cycles... I did not notice any particular "bang" noise with the opening and closing of the various doors, actually these doors cycle rather smoothly. The hydraulic systems 1 and 4 were normally pressurized - what can I say then? - I suspect the oleo struts, really to be the source of noise - if any - remember also, the gear bogies are subject to an abrupt "tilt" in the liftoff process - to retract the gear, and that, I suspect could be the source of a loud noise, by itself... is this the answer...?
xxx
(s) Skipper
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29350 posts, RR: 62 Reply 17, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3514 times:
I agree the Oleo's are the source too.
But I was just making the point that other componets can make other banging noises too.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
Leej From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 287 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3485 times:
From what I understood, it isn't the oleo (at least on the 747's which I have noticed it on) - it's the wing mounted gear wheels springing back to the uncompressed stage. Look at some pics of the gear just before touchdown, the rear wheels are down first, then the front follows - the actuator is compressed to smooth out the landing as the weight is placed on the wheels.
So, on take off, as the plane rotates and lifts off , the noise you hear in the rear of the cabin is the gear dropping / tilting back to it's uncompressed stage. Does that make sense?
The discussion I believe is not about the gear doors closing, as the 'thump thump' always occurs at the moment just after takeoff.
I have also noticed it on the 767 - but not any of the single bogie planes. I'm on a 737 tomorrow morning, I'm going to listen for it though anyway.
Ciao!
FDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 38 Reply 19, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3462 times:
I also believe this is the strut going to full oleo extend.
Yes the strut is damped from going from compressed to full oleo extend, if it wasn't, the bang at lift-off would be much louder with accompanied damage.
>>>And even if you had landing gear struts without dampers, the aircraft does not come off the runway instantaneously. The gear struts would extend at the same rate as the rate at which aircraft lifts off the runway. Is that fast enough to cause a bang at the moment when the wheels leave the tarmac?<<<
I would think the strut extends at a slower rate than lift-off due to dampening. Any metal to metal (solid contact) contact with the large weight of the strut piston under pneumatic pressure will cause a bang.
I've never seen rubber bumpers on any of the struts I've taken apart and repacked.
>>>I’m not sure here, been a while since I got close and personal with a 737 - but don’t they still have gear doors? They just don’t cover the wheels themselves<<<
The main gear doors are attached to the gear assembly and cover the struts, but there are no gear doors that covers the wheels. They remain uncovered.
The nose doors are mechanically opened and closed with movement of the nose gear and are not hydraulically actuated.
Not all bogies are tilted though. Aircraft such as the DC10 & A300-600 are level for retraction.
Essentialpowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3403 times:
FredT, as the strut reaches full extension in a no load condition it will make a nice thump as it reaches the limit...
No, L188, you mentioned that it could be the oleos after I had already stated it was possibly the struts. You should read what people post, and if you agree, state that. ¿comprende?
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29350 posts, RR: 62 Reply 21, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3353 times:
You just aren't big on consensus opinions, are you Essentialpowr.
Now will you consent that there can be more then one bang during the liftoff and retract cycle on a modern aircraft.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
Leej From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 287 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3231 times:
Well, as I said, here I am back at my desk after a quick visit to the land of the black stuff this weekend.
Boeing 737-500 - I sat right on the wing, exit seats both ways. Waited until that moment, and could detect only a slight 'thump' on lift off. So, I guess that that must be the oleo going to full extend.
On the way back, 737-400, again exit seat on the wing, no thump or bang detected, however I had by then had a few pints of Guinness!!!!
EssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3205 times:
L188,
???? Do you read others posts, ever?
I never stated that this bang was solely from the struts, I only postulated that and cited the 737 as an example. If you think that it's the flapper valve in the lav, I don't care...but the I mentioned the strut in the 3rd response, and that appears to be the consensus.
If you agree (you said oleos), state that, and establish the fact that you are reading others posts...as opposed to mindlessly arguing.
Cdfmxtech From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1338 posts, RR: 29 Reply 24, posted (10 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3195 times:
B737
A snubber valve is installed on the inner cylinder just below the upper bearing. The valve consists of an angular sectioned bronze ring that moves up and down when the shock strut operates to act as a one-way restrictor. When the shock strut is compressing, the snubber valve allows an unrestricted flow of oil from the upper chamber into the annular space between inner and outer cylinders. When the shock strut extends, the snubber valve moves up to close off holes in the upper bearing; this restricts flow from the annular space and so absorbs shock strut rebound.
B757
Called a "Rebound Snubber"
B767
Called a "Recoil valve"
I think it's safe to assume that the sound you are hearing is not the strut extending....if indeed it is as loud as you say it is.
25 EssentialPowr: And so Cdfmxtech, the source of the noise is????? A strut assembly which is designed to support thousands of pounds will certainly make a resounding "
26 Cdfmxtech: That may very well be so, but I'll tell u...I flew on some very old b747s (Tower Air) that were at the time verly long btwn gear changes. Never heard
27 Lh526: ... it's a bang that sounds like the gear hitting a small rock or bumper on the runway at lift-off. I talked to some Lufthansa engineers and they said
28 QANTAS747-438: Yeah, Lh526, I know exactly what sound you're talking about! You're going down the runway, the nose lifts up, and as the plane tilts upward, the wing
29 Ndege: Perhaps it's a gremlin latching on to the wing at the last possible moment. When all else fails, blame the gremlins! BT
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