Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Southwest Autothrottles  
User currently offlineERFly From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 164 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4736 times:

Just had a question...Are Southwest pilots allowed to use the Autothottles on the NGs (-700s)?

I know they're disabled on the -300s and -500s and non-existent on the -200s. But from looking at the pictures, they seem to be in working condition on the NGs.

Could someone please clarify?

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1335 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4647 times:

No. The AT on the -700's are disabled like the autobrakes.

User currently offlineEAC_732 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4631 times:

Hello,

Why would the autothrottle be disabled?

Regards
EAC_732


User currently offlineFutureatp From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4565 times:

EAC 732,

If I remeber correctly from articles i've read about Southwest, it is about a philosophy Southwest has about the operation of thier aircraft. They want pilots to be acitivly involved with the operation of the aircraft. They do not want "button pushers" according to an article I read some time ago in Airways mag. And it is also a way to save money I guess. Because youre not training your flight crew to be current on the operation some of the extra's.

Just an outsiders assumption!

John


User currently offlineEAC_732 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4542 times:

Hello John,

Thanks for your comments, if they disable the throttle that means they will have to manually control the thrust levers. This would mean that they would have to keep moving the throttles into the correct position to control the desired speed. Can anyone explain in more detail about the use of having Autothrottle disabled?

Regards
EAC_732


User currently offlineAJ From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2396 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4542 times:

A flawed logic perhaps?

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Michael Carter


Using automatics when fatigued or operating in difficult conditions can be extremely useful if they are used properly!


User currently offlineAvioniker From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1109 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4511 times:

Considering WN's penchant for on time and early arrivals (which some blame for the picture above), It's my opinion that is the sole reason for the Autothrottle being disabled in the NG's. (Of course I agree completely that eliminates the need for a separate qualification and currency requirement.)
The NG Autothrottle interfaces somewhat differently than previous aircraft. Very simply stated it is not only for speed or N-1 control. The FCC and ATS share the responsibility for VNav, Speed control, VNav Path and Altitude.
Previous aircraft ATS had little to do with Altitude or VNav Path control.
By disabling the ATS WN has reduced the number of possible malfunctions enormously.
They've also, however, disabled the NG's ability to manage fuel burn more efficiently through the FMC interface.
Just one man's opinion, mind you.



One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
User currently offlineN521NA From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 517 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4471 times:

So their -300s and -500s can use VNAV but their 700's cannot? Is that correct? If not, do they even bother programming the performance section of the FMC?

User currently offlineShaun3000 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4428 times:

Yes, and that's also the only real Southwest crash I'm aware of. Compare that to other airlines!

User currently offlineAvioniker From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1109 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4304 times:

VNav is a mode used to control the climb path and normally directed or commanded by the Flight Management Computer System. In the NG aircraft the Autothrottle has a big part in controlling this function while interfacing with the Flight Control Computer and the FMC. With the ATS disabled VNav becomes a function solely of the FMC/FCC and elevator control in response to the pilots' throttle setting. The flight director is a function of the FCC so the autopilot need not be engaged to use VNav.
VNav is usable without ATS in the 700's unless deactivated or not installed. Some airlines have disabled this mode, I don't know about Southwest.



One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
User currently offlineSCXmechanic From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 534 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4261 times:

Some of you will be shocked to know that we are installing Auto Throttles in the 3/5/7 series aircraft. I don't know the reason behind this. But I know its fact.

Many of the ones I have worked on lately have the AT computers already installed. And no, they aren't old units that were never removed. These are shiny new boxes.. I don't know what the deadline is for having them activated. Could this possibly be for the pending Domestic RVSM procedures that are to go into effect in the next year or so?

V-Nav is disabled in all SWA 3/5/7 series acft. There is a cover that is installed over the switch on the MCP on the older MCP's. The newer push button ones on the 700 have a INOP/DEACTIVAED decal above it I believe.
But let me say this... Just because it says deactivated doesn't mean it doesn't work.. Its just that our guys aren't supposed to be using it.

But I wouldn't be surprised to see it activated when the AT is put back on line.


User currently offlineBio15 From Colombia, joined Mar 2001, 1089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4249 times:

Hi, I was wondering, what is ATS?

-Alfredo


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4207 times:

SCXMechanic:

Once your auto-throttles are up and running don't be surprised if you see this write up, "Auto throttles will not engaged when selected". About a year and half ago there was a 737-800 that came into my station with this exact write up. Upon further investigation I found that a fellow AMT at an other station had placarded it inop. Do you know what my "fix" was? Turning up the brightness knob for the MCP. As you probably already know if the brightness is turned all the way down you won't see the green announciator light for the AT switch. Fortunately the AMT who placarded it did not throw another MCP in.

That actually happened at another station. They thought the MCP was bad so they installed a new one. A big waste of money. It was not until that night that someone figured out what the "problem" was.


User currently offlineAvioniker From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1109 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4173 times:

737,
Guess what? That's not an uncommon write up. Just thank your lucky stars that AA didn't take the "Sleep Mode" option for the MCDU's. BTW if you go up on a plane that's been sitting for over 8 hours and you have VOR off flags, recycle the CB's. They do go to sleep.

ATS = Autothrottle System
FCC = Flight Control Computer
FMC = Flight Management Computer
FMCS = " " " System
MCP = Mode Control Panel

Sorry for the acronyms. They confuse even the most experienced. (Especially when some newly graduated engineer doesn't know the old ones and resorts to inventing new. NG aircraft especially...)



One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
User currently offlineSCXmechanic From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 534 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4121 times:

LMP737,

Thanks for the info.. I've never heard of that before.. But sounds good to me. I will store it away in hopes I can recall it when and if needed.

How is the vote going? You think you all will go AMFA? I don't believe you will be disappointed.

It seems like a lot of work creating everything from scratch. But its a great relief not having the Reamsters around.

See ya!


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4107 times:

SCX:

Here at AA I haven't heard much about the AMFA drive lately. The way things are looking right now I'll probably be looking for another job very soon.


User currently offlineConcorde1518 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 746 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (11 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4001 times:

1) So, is the VNAV not usable on the older MCP's since there's an actual cover versus a decal over the switch (for the pilots that may cheat)?
2) What is the policy on the climb? Do the pilots climb with VS hold (according to the books)?
2) After the ATS is installed, will the FMC's work with full VNAV like any other airline, like, say DL (even if they aren't supposed to be using VNAV on WN)?
3) So, you're installing ATS now, are any completed aircraft flying on the line right now? if not, what is the projected date?
4) will this require a familiarization course to train the pilots on the ATS?
5) If you go by the book, and don't use VNAV, is the FMC still fully filled out, or can you skip the performance pages and use the OPC as your reference?

Lots of questions...
Thanks
 Smile


User currently offlineBarney captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 984 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (11 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3949 times:

SCX,

Looking at your comments and profile, you must be one of our kick-a## mx dudes, you guys are the best I've ever seen. I just watched you guys in OAK change our #1 starter in under 15minutes, the folks never even had to get off the AC. Are you serious about AT coming our way? UGTBSM!!!! Never thought I'd see the day. The old guard in DAL is gone with some very positive changes coming down the line.

Now, with regards to the auto-brakes, we've had them up and running for over a year now.

Concorde, let me see if I can clear some of this up;

The VNAV is not authorized for use. There are a few 3/5/700's that have the VNAV switch uncovered and *sometimes* it is actually operable.

As far as climb goes, it is really technique only. Most guys use VS to maintain the computed climb speed (or close to it) on the CDU. I prefer using the MCP speed for the climb, when used properly, it does a nice job.

Even though VNAV is not hooked up, we still have VNAV info displayed on the CDU's and in the NG's also on the flat panel displays. It works perfectly; at the computed top of descent, all you do is pull the throttles to idle and pitch over (using VS or Control Wheel Steering) to maintain as close to a zero vertical deviation as possible. It's really very easy to maintain a profile descent that is every bit as accurate as full VNAV/AT without all the extra costs.

Hope this helps.



...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineMarc Kobaissi From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (11 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3926 times:



Barney Captain,

Who/what is the old guard in DAL?






User currently offlineBarney captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 984 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (11 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3913 times:

The Old guard was the upper management in the Flight Ops Dept that had a great reluctance to accept change (ie new technology). They have since been replaced with a group who is very forward looking in their approach while still keeping an eye on costs.


...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineAM From Mexico, joined Oct 1999, 590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (11 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3895 times:

Barney Captain,

When using speed select during climb, do you use CWS or do you couple it with VS?




"... for there you have been and there you will long to return."
User currently offlineSCXmechanic From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 534 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (11 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3843 times:

Barney Capt,

Thanks for your reply and your kind words.. We have some very good technicians here and some very average ones too. But its all good. We make do.

The autothrottles are on the way. I don't know when they will be activated. But new boxes are installed in the shelves down in the E&E. If you get a chance to look in one, you will prolly find the same thing. I guess the thinking is that ATS can better manage engine/acft performance when coupled with the FMC. Sounds logical to me. That and a high(?) cost index would save some $$ I suppose.

I have heard that some airlines engage the A/P at 500ft AGL and don't disconnect till 500ft AGL on landing just to get the max cost savings from the FMC.

Also, I hear EFIS is coming to -300/5's too. They will be upgraded to UAL and CO's style of EFIS. This is per one of the avionics instructors in DAL.

But shhhh You didn't hear that from me! LOL

Are you based in OAK? If so, you may fly with a buddy of mine. He is a rather new F/O, 2001 seniority. We used to work together prior to LUV, I was a flight mechanic and he was sitting sideways on a DC-10.


LMP737,

Sorry to hear you may join the many many others out on the street. I didn't realize you were with AA. I saw EWR and just assumed you were with CO.
How far are you from the bottom at your station? Man, I feel for you. I got the axe at TWA several years ago. So I know how it feels. Good luck and I'll keep my fingers crossed for ya.

Send a resume to SWA. I hear we are still hiring in some locations. I know we are adding more to this station in the next week or so. We have gone from 11 mechanics in Jan 2002 to just over 27 now I think. But they have all been transfers. But voids left by them have to be filled.



User currently offlineSCXmechanic From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 534 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (11 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3834 times:

Barney Capt,

Send me a an email, I have some other info that might surprise you.

boeing727@att.net



User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (11 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3833 times:

"I have heard that some airlines engage the A/P at 500ft AGL and don't disconnect till 500ft AGL on landing just to get the max cost savings from the FMC."

Whilst our airline does not suggest altitudes at which to connect / disconnect the automatic systems, our SOPs do state that:

"Wherever possible, it is recommended that the autopilots, FMC and Flight Director Systems are used throughout the flight to achieve maximum efficiency of aircraft operation, irrespective of weather conditions and the type of landing intended."

It does mention however (in a different location) that minimum height for autopilot engagement is 500ft AAL and that below 1,000ft ARTE on the approach, the autopilot may only remain engaged if coupled to an ILS glideslope or in V/S mode. In V/S mode 300ft ARTE is the minimum disconnect, 180ft ARTE with a single channel ILS glideslope and no minimum (of course) for 2 or 3-channel ILS autoland.



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineConcorde1518 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 746 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (11 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3766 times:

So, once the autothrottles and EFIS come (for the classics) will the books still discourage VNAV use, or will ops become similar to that of, say UA's 737s?

 Smile


25 Barney captain : AM Sorry for the late reply, just got back from a trip. VS, CWS, and MCP speed are all separate A/P pitch commands and can't be used together. MCP com
26 Rick767 : Barney, Do you actually ever use CWS?
27 Avioniker : BTW with the NG autopilot when CMD is selected CWS is the default mode of engagement until the pilot selects a mode like ALT HLD, or LNAV. Of course t
28 Barney captain : Rick Sure, for almost every descent. Without VNAV, I find it the easiest way to hold the path descent. A lot of guys use VS, but for me, it's easier i
29 Rick767 : Barney, Yes I can see the application of CWS without VNAV. We have no procedures or practical training involving the use of CWS on our aircraft (indee
30 AM : Thanks Captain. I thought MCP selected speed was just an autothrottle mode independent from the selected pitch mode.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Southwest Autothrottles
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Southwest Pilot Walkarounds. posted Tue Apr 25 2006 07:02:41 by CX flyboy
Southwest Midway Incident Pics posted Wed Dec 21 2005 22:24:27 by Airmech
Southwest 737 Overrun At Chicago posted Sun Dec 11 2005 20:03:52 by Neilking
Southwest's 300/500's Flight Decks posted Sat Nov 19 2005 02:13:25 by Darrenthe747
Southwest Acars posted Mon Mar 14 2005 22:52:38 by Newark777
Airbus Autothrottles And Landings posted Wed Mar 2 2005 18:00:07 by Milan320
AirTran/Southwest 737 Cockpit Differences? posted Mon Jan 24 2005 20:57:24 by BR715-A1-30
Southwest Flight Altitudes posted Wed Nov 10 2004 21:34:17 by Usairwaysclt
Southwest Flight Information posted Wed Sep 29 2004 00:02:01 by FrequentFlyKid
Southwest Interview posted Tue Mar 30 2004 06:39:03 by IlikeYYC

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format