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Teaching 8s-on-pylons  
User currently offlineDg_pilot From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 856 posts, RR: 2
Posted (11 years 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5691 times:

While I can do these myself, I am a little worried about teaching them since I am working on my CFI. For those of you with experience, are there any small things that really seem to help your students understand them?

Then there's pivotal altitude. I know simply that it is the altitude at which the aircraft will appear to 'pivot' around the point and that it is based on groundspeed, whereas a higher groundspeed would require a higher altitude. I'm not sure I understand the "why" of it however...?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNormalSpeed From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5513 times:

Let me first recommend two books that may help clear things up. The first is called the Airplane Flying Handbook. It is an FAA publication, and is basically the final word on all the "whys and hows" of each maneuver. It's invaluable, in my opinion. The second is the Gliem CFI Maneuvers manual. It has everything that the AFH has, plus information on the FOI, etc. It's basically a super-elaborated CFI PTS. It's very helpful when creating lesson plans, and learning the maneuvers.

About Eights on Pylons--They are perhaps my least favorite maneuver ever. I personally find Lazy Eights more simple, and easier to explain. It was the worst maneuver on my CFI checkride (but I still passed).

The crux of the manuever (for me) seems to be remembering which whether to add or release elevator pressure to keep the wing on the pylon.

Anyway, I'm sure you remember how to peform this maneuver yourself. The challenge with teaching it being able to talk as you perform it--and be able to include enough information, yet also being able to select the information that you do give. Sometimes too much information in flight can be just as bad as too little. The AFM and Gliem will give you good ideas of what you could say to a student to help the transfer of knowledge.

Also, on the CFI checkride, the examiner will take the role of a commercial student (during the commercial maneuvers, anyway), so you can be a bit more technical in your descriptions.

"I'm not sure I understand the "why" of it however...?"

It's really a lot more simple than you are making it. In fact, you described it perfectly--a higher groundspeed requires a higher altitude. And that's all you want to say in the air. (On the ground, you can get into technical descriptions of "why," i.e. the mathematical formula etc. In fact, I'd have to look up the exact reason of "why," I've never gotten asked that. All my books are packed away though. Those two recommended manuals should shed some light on the subject.)

Hope this helps.

-Normal


User currently offlineDoug_or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3381 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (11 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5503 times:

why-

the way I understand it, if there is more wind and therefore a higher ground speed, you'll need to dive more to get a high enough TAS to compensate on the upwind, and then climb more to to have a low enough TAS on the downwind.



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlineDg_pilot From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 856 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (11 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5498 times:

""The second is the Gliem CFI Maneuvers manual. It has everything that the AFH has, plus information on the FOI, etc. It's basically a super-elaborated CFI PTS. It's very helpful when creating lesson plans, and learning the maneuvers.""

So does it gives tips on teaching each maneuver as you were doing it in the air? Is it anything like The Flight Instructor's Manual by Bill Kershner? That is also great reading and recommend it to anyone.


User currently offlineScootertrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 569 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (11 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5492 times:

It has been a while for me, but something I used to do to help my students is this:

1. Anticipate when the point will begin to move relative to your line of site.. i.e. understand how your groundspeed will change throughout the maneuver.

2. Carry an index card with pivotal altitudes written on it. Teach the student to estimate his beginning groundspeed. Starting at the proper altitude is critical.

3. At no point during the maneuver should the rate of climb or descent exceed 100-300 feet per minute, unless the winds are really ripping. Practice making 15-45 degree banked turns with shallow climbs and descents on the way to practice area to show the student what these will look like... Emphasize looking outside.

4. Teach the student that when the pylon moves... Look back in front the airplane to make a pitch correction, then scan for traffic, then back to the pylon. Small control corrections are key and don't fixate on the pylon.

That is what I did anyway... Good Luck.


User currently offlineDg_pilot From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 856 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (11 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5481 times:

I particularly like number 2.....it greatly simplifies things.

User currently offlineNormalSpeed From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (11 years 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5479 times:

Dg,

I'm not really familiar with Kershner's book, but I've heard good things about it. The Gliem manual gives an (extremely) thourough description of each maneuver, but it's up to you to translate that into something you can tell to the student. The AFM is a "must have," and the Gliem manual helped me tremendously, because it painstakingly describes everything in the CFI PTS (including the new stuff--Steep Spirals, Power-off 180 approaches, etc., if you buy the most current edition.) I used it to study my rear end off, and so I was hyper-prepared. I was more prepared for my CFI checkride than I had been for any checkride before (and I have a 4-0 record!)--the examiner couldn't ask me something that I hadn't studied.

Also, I really like scootertrash's ideas. I'll have to remember those.

-Normal


User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6199 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (11 years 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5469 times:

All I do is just pull (or push) the yoke in the direction that the point appears in my windscreen. If the point is to the front of the wing, I give forward pressure. If the point appears aft of the wing, I give back pressure. In essence, I just move the yoke in the direction of the point. This seems to work well for me.


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineDg_pilot From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 856 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (11 years 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5457 times:

Yeah, same here Jhooper. I just remember, "if it moves back, pull back."

User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4482 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (11 years 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5426 times:

Also, flying the maneuver with only one hand on the yoke helps me as well. It helps me make subtle pitch changes...I tend to overestimate how much pitch change I need with two hands. This also helps out during other commercial maneuvers (lazy eights especially).


I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineNight_Flight From United States of America, joined May 1999, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (11 years ago) and read 5356 times:

I teach and test eights on pylons quite often. First off, for virtually every maneuver listed in various PTS’s, there are reasons why we perform it.

Example: Lazy Eight—this is the only maneuver where all of the flight instruments are in continuous motion. Pilots are tested to determine if they are able to adjust to the trend and rate of change in their flight instruments.

Turns around a point—this maneuver is required because it is the only maneuver where we keep a fixed distance from a stationary object on the ground. Pilots are tested to determine if they adjust for the wind by varying their angle of bank.

With Eights on Pylons— this maneuver is required because it is the only maneuver where we keep a fixed distance from a stationary object on the ground. Pilots are tested to determine if they adjust for the wind by varying their pitch angle.

The common mistake I see is poor planning in the setup and entry. I see that students pick poor pylons to begin with and calculate incorrect pivotal altitudes.

I believe that the most important part of teaching this maneuver is a thorough pre-flight briefing. If the student knows what the maneuver is all about and has had a good explanation of how and why to correct, they tend to fly a lot better.



Remember when sex was safe and flying was dangerous?
User currently offlineNormalSpeed From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5346 times:

"With Eights on Pylons— this maneuver is required because it is the only maneuver where we keep a fixed distance from a stationary object on the ground. Pilots are tested to determine if they adjust for the wind by varying their pitch angle."

Just a small clarification, Eights on Pylons are not flown at a fixed distance. Perhaps this is just a typing error--you said the exact same thing about Turns Around a Point, which are flown at an equal distance. Also, the principle of equidistance is applied to S-Turns Across a Road (although there are two different turn radius centers), as well as Eights Around Pylons--a manevuer described in the Airplane Flying Handbook, but not included in the Commerical or CFI PTS.

-Normal


User currently offlineNight_Flight From United States of America, joined May 1999, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5317 times:

My bad! I cut and pasted and forgot to delete that part. Thanks for the clarification NormalSpeed.

-Night_Flight-




Remember when sex was safe and flying was dangerous?
User currently offlineScootertrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 569 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (10 years 12 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5323 times:

Not trying to add to the bashing Night_Flight... Just one other correction!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

You said:

Example: Lazy Eight???this is the only maneuver where all of the flight instruments are in continuous motion. Pilots are tested to determine if they are able to adjust to the trend and rate of change in their flight instruments.

My response:

The point of Lazy Eights is not that all of the flight instruments are in motion, nor are pilots tested to determine that they adjust anything with the instruments. Lazy Eights is a head outside maneuver where the aircraft's attitude is constantly changing in all three axis: Pitch, roll and yaw. The point of the maneuver is to accurately maneuver the aircraft relative to a visual reference line to show mastery of the airplane's flight controls. There are numerical standards specified in the Commercial PTS, but these in no way indicate that this is an instrument reference maneuver.

A little off topic, but I thought it needed saying! Happy flying!


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4183 posts, RR: 37
Reply 14, posted (10 years 12 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5302 times:

When i teach lazy eights, lots of times I will cover all the instruments except airspeed and altitude for my students...


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Reply 15, posted (10 years 12 months 14 hours ago) and read 5255 times:

Sorry to bring this back to the top, but can anyone tell me if you should preform Lazy Eights with the Gear up or Down in RG aircraft? I'm guessing gear down since it's a ground ref. maneuver. I tried finding this in the PTS and AFH but to no avail. Thanks.

User currently offlineScootertrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 569 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (10 years 12 months 14 hours ago) and read 5259 times:

Gear up... The maneuver is performed at or below Va.

User currently offlineNormalSpeed From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 12 months 6 hours ago) and read 5245 times:

I'm guessing gear down since it's a ground ref. maneuver..."

I suppose ground reference maneuvers could be performed with the gear down; you wouldn't bust a checkride for it. In fact, I can see some advantages to performing them with the gear down, i.e., since ground reference manuevers are performed at a low altitude, if the gear is already extended, you are that much further ahead in the event of an engine failure. However, standard procedure at my school was to perform ground reference manuevers with the gear up, and that's how I performed them on my CFI checkride.

But, that's something to think about. I personally doubt that gear up/gear down would have that much effect on ground reference manuevers. However, you'd definitely want to have the gear up for performance maneuvers, i.e. lazy eights, chandelles, steep turns, steep spirals, etc.

In any case, you'd want to be at or below Va, and if the gear is down, below Vle.

-Normal


User currently offlineScootertrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 569 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (10 years 12 months 5 hours ago) and read 5242 times:

KAUSpilot:

Just a comment on something I missed the first time I read your post.

Lazy 8's is NOT a ground reference maneuver. Sure, you must utilize a reference line outside of the aircraft to fly lazy 8's, but that does not make it a ground reference maneuver. Ground reference maneuvers are turns around a point, s-turns across a road, rectangular course and eights-on-pylons. With the exception of eights-on-pylons, all of these require that a constant ground track be maintained while correcting for wind. Even in eights-on-pylons, your ground speed is of primary concern and must be taken into account to successfully complete the maneuver.

While lazy 8's utilize a reference line outside the airplane, neither the ground speed of the airplane nor it's specific ground track are of tantamount concern. Therefore, lazy 8's is not a ground reference maneuver.

One other comment: In 5 years of instructing, I never put the gear down for any ground reference maneuvers. I do not have the Flight Training Handbook available, but I recall no instructions to be in landing configuration for ground ref stuff. As for Lazy 8's, I am fairly certain it specifies cruise configuration. I would even have my students ensure that the mixture was leaned for cruise flight, since there is no power change during the maneuver.


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4183 posts, RR: 37
Reply 19, posted (10 years 12 months 4 hours ago) and read 5243 times:

I have students do both of these "8's" these in cruise configuration, also.

Story time:
I know of an examiner that had a guy going for his commercial in a DC-3 (why...i dont know..he's a DE and it was story time with the student sitting there waiting for his checkride, so I just smile and nod)...he said they got through all the manuevers and decided it would be fun to do lazy eights and chandelles and 8's on pylons in the plane too. That's my story.... yep... hope you..like it....ok... im..leaving now.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Reply 20, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5229 times:

Yeah Scooter, terribly sorry everbody!!!! I made a big typo, I meant to ask about Eights on Pylons. I always do Lazy Eights and Chandelles in the cruise configuration but meant to ask about eights on pylons in regard to the gear positions. I have an annoying tendency to confuse the names of the "eights" maneuvers. Sorry about that (better get that straight before the checkride, eh?)!

I had actually been practicing my eights on pylons with the gear *UP* but I talked to my CFI yesterday and he said I should probably be doing them with the gear down. I figured I'd ask on here for more opinions. In the 182 RG I'm flying, I suppose it really doesn't matter aerodynamics wise since Vle is 140 KIAS and Va is going to be between 112-89 KIAS.

[Edited 2003-04-28 04:07:38]

User currently offlineScootertrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 569 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (10 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5221 times:

KAUSpilot:

Don't sweat it, you sure aren't the first to get the "8's" mixed up. Heck I used to jam up the names of those things all the time, much to the annoyance of my poor students.

Once again, I would recommend a gear up configuration for the ground reference stuff.


User currently offlineFlyboy7974 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1540 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5221 times:

been teaching now for three years, have about 1300 given in az, and when i teach 8 on pylons, i teach the student that once they figure out pivotal altitude, wind, and their points, as they roll in and place the rivets down the wing on the pylon, think of it as a race, and the outcome should a tie between the rivets and the pylon. if the pylon moves ahead of the wing, the only way for us to tie is to catch up, how do you speed up, slight nose down to speed up and catch the pylon. if your wing rivets are ahead of the pylon, we need to slow down, how do they do that, by light backpressure to slow a/s and let the pylon catch us. works like a charm for me here

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