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777 Engine Start  
User currently offlineModesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2789 posts, RR: 5
Posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6362 times:

I read a book titled "Flying the Big Jets" by Stanley Stewart. He mentions that PW-powered 777's can execute a simultaneous autostart while GE-powered 777's (I think) must start one engine at a time. Can anyone shed some light on this matter and explain these procedures? Thanks.

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineANA777master From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6278 times:

This is quite true. The GE engines must be started after the other is at idle.

User currently offlineJgo From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2001, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6255 times:

Interesting, is there a particular reason?

Thanks
- Jarrad


User currently offlineDC10Tony From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1012 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6204 times:

I've never worked with a 777, but every other plane I've worked with never started both engines at the same time. One would start, spool up to idle speed and the capt. would start the other one.

User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6588 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6214 times:

Maybe the GE engines are so big that all the APU air is needed to turn one engine to start it?

We can start both of ours together (Rolls Royce). We simply put both engine starters to start, put the fuel switches to run, and the engine takes care of itself. At max motoring and EGT below 95 degrees, the fuel will automatically start running and the engine starts. If problems are encountered such as a hung start, hot start, no light-off within the time limit, no N1 turning etc.., the start is suspended. For certain start suspensions, the engine will wait the appropriate time, then attempt a restart for a second time. If unsuccessful, it then stops and the pilot gets to do something. It really is a foolproof system.


User currently offlineBa299 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2003, 173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6118 times:

As always cxflybox are correct.
Here in BA we have both type of engine on our 777. On the RR equipped aircraft we can start both engine at the same time. With the GE we have to start one engine and than other due to the huge need of air to start the GE engine.


User currently offlineAvioniker From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1109 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (11 years 3 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5999 times:

Back in the 80's, before the APU's were derated for economy and life, we used to start two engines on the KC-10's at the same time. Then we'd start #2 on the way to the runway. Those were GE CF6-50's. There were no problems or prohibitions that I knew of. That's the way we were taught by the DAC and AA folks doing our training.


One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
User currently offlineMuddydawg From Portugal, joined Jan 2003, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (11 years 3 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5954 times:

Off topic but still cool. I have seen on many occasions C-17's start #1 engine off of the apu, deploy #1 T/R, advance the throttle to boost manifold pressure and start the other three engines at the same time. When we run for maintenance we aren't allowed to do anything special like that. The computer tracks that and if anything went wrong they would have our @$$es.

User currently offlineSudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (11 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5926 times:

Ba299.......

welcome to A.net.

It's nice that more females join the "party".

What are you flying, and from the left or right seat?

Aim for the sky.
Sudden



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlineBa299 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2003, 173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (11 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 5915 times:

I just finished the training on the right seat for the 777. And my favorite are the 777 with the RR engines.

User currently offlineSudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (11 years 3 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5902 times:

Then I add a congrats.  Smile

Aim for the sky.
Sudden



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6588 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (11 years 3 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5896 times:

Congratulations Ba299,

I have not been on the 777 for that long either (about 9 months) and I do believe that it is one of the best aircraft in the world. I love almost everything about it apart from it's handling of VNAV descents, and putting away those bloody sunshades in the compartment on the right!


User currently offlineSudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (11 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5794 times:

The sunshades was a good one. Big grin

Are you sure you read the manual in detail, you might have missed something.  Big thumbs up

Aim for the sky.
Sudden



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6588 posts, RR: 55
Reply 13, posted (11 years 3 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5776 times:

The reason VNAV is so bad is because in the software load on our planes, the data used is GE90 data. The GE90 is a lot bigger than the Trent800s we use and therefore the characteristics are different. VNAV calculates a descent line from top of descent to the ground, including any descent speed/altitude restrictions you have programmed into the descent. At high altitudes, in idle thrust, the GE90s creat more drag than the Trents, and therefore, their VNAV Path can be steeper and they can still maintain the standard 300kts in descent.

If we fly the same steep VNAV path, the aircraft often cannot hold that 300kts as our little (Sort of!) engines don't provide as much drag, so the aircraft slowly accelerates. Some pilots will fix this by occassionally pulling the speedbrake to slow the aircraft back down when needed. Others will choose FLCH mode and disregard the VNAV path.

The problem is reversed at lower levels. As we descend and the air gets thicker, the GE90s at idle start producing a lot more idle thrust than our Trents, and therefore, their path is designed to be more shallow at lower levels in order for them to maintain the 300kts. When we hit this shallower section, we cannot maintain both the 300kts and idle thrust, so the aircraft will begin to slow beyond 300kts. It will drop until the aircraft autopilot gives up on tha path and changes to VNAV SPD, adding thrust to maintain the 300kts. The path then gets thrown out the window and the aircraft starts flying the speed.

It all makes for an untidy descent, especially if you pull the speedbrakes to lose energy at higher levels, then add thrust to gain energy at lower levels.
However, I can just fly FLCH and ignore that path and work out my own path. That isn't a problem. However those bloody sunshades....sometimes I have to get out of my seat and crouch on the floor in order to figure out how to put them back!!


User currently offlineSudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (11 years 3 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5751 times:

As it is a software issue, why isn't the V-NAV programmed to fit the Trents as well?
Might be a very novis question, but anyway.

Aim for the sky.
Sudden



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlineBa299 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2003, 173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (11 years 3 months 4 days ago) and read 5761 times:

We have the same problem on the older 777 with RR engines. On the newest we don't have this trouble. Under all the other point the aircraft are perfect more easy to fly than the airbus A320.

User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6588 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5730 times:

Ba299,

Do you have the same problem with the sunshades, or is it just me?  Smile

Sudden,

It is indeed a simple software update that would fix it, but Boeing charge a lot of money for these updates per aircraft and Cathay isn't willing to pay it as it isn't really a big problem. I assume our new 777s due next year will have the new software as standard.


User currently offlineSudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5558 times:

Can't they update the sunshades as well, or is that maybe a to costfull update as well!? Big grin

Aim for the sky.
Sudden



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6588 posts, RR: 55
Reply 18, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5545 times:

They probably won't update it even if it's free....just to piss FOs off!

User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5547 times:

"They probably won't update it even if it's free....just to piss FOs off!"

Best become a Captain then! How many years do you have to go?



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6588 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (11 years 3 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5513 times:

Rick767,

Quite a while yet. Before this SARS thing, probably 6-7 years, but now, probably 9 or even 10. I can only hope that things pick up soon and we continue to expand. How about yourself?


User currently offlineBA777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2173 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (11 years 3 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5498 times:

Wow, three cool pilots in this discussion, it's my lucky day  Smile

CX Flyboy: "The reason VNAV is so bad is because in the software load on our planes, the data used is GE90 data. The GE90 is a lot bigger than the Trent800s we use and therefore the characteristics are different."

Surely that could be dangerous, what was Boeing's excuse to that, do fellow 777 pilots complain about it a lot??


Ba229,

How long have you been a pilot(ess) for, what plane did you start out on? Was it the 320?

Also, I'm guessing that you're LHR based when you say RR 772s, do you regularly operate out of Gatwick to the Caribbean or PHX?

Henry (777 Freak)


User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (11 years 3 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5490 times:

"Quite a while yet. Before this SARS thing, probably 6-7 years, but now, probably 9 or even 10. I can only hope that things pick up soon and we continue to expand. How about yourself?"

About 6-7 years, depending on expansion and retirements. Next f/o on the list for upgrade has been with the airline 9.5 years and I am at 3.5  Sad

Bit annoying with Easyjet and Ryanair pilots getting command after 3 years or so due to rapid expansion, a guy I trained with in 1998 now commands a 737NG for FR! Not worth moving now though, BY is a happy bunch all-round despite the moaners!

Hope the SARS thing clears up quick for you out there, must have had a huge impact.



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineBa299 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2003, 173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (11 years 3 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5484 times:

Yes I have the same problem with the sunshades.
My first a/c as a professional pilot was the B727-200 for the DHL.
Normally the RR777 operate from LHR. The GE777 operate from LGW and LHR, a few time for some strange reason, such as a/c change, you can see the RR777 in LGW but it is rarely.


User currently offlineBA777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2173 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (11 years 3 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5470 times:

BA299,

Cool, the oldie 727 lol. What a contrast to the 777 eh?

Yeh, a mix of RR & GE from LHR, 99% GE from LGW also, but the occasional RR, like i said. How many hours do you fly a month, and is it say fly out on a Sunday, stay over Monday or Tuesday as well then fly back??

Henry


25 Sudden : Cx flyboy... how does your paxload look like now? Are you even canc. flight, or have some flight been removed totally from your schedule for now? Aim
26 Cx flyboy : Henry, It's not really dangerous, just more of an annoyance. In VNAV PTH, the aircraft is trying to fly the predetermined descant path, AND maintain t
27 Post contains images BA777 : Thans CX_flyboy, It must be annoying, maybe it was a CX cheapo deal like the sunshades Do you fly the 777 or 747? Henry
28 Cx flyboy : Hi Henry, I fly the 777. I used to be S/O on the 744, but now FO on 777s.
29 Mr.BA : Cx Flyboy, Sorry to be a little off topic, on B777s are the fuel crossfeed supposed to be on or each engine will burn fuel from individual tanks? Than
30 Cx flyboy : Hi Mr. BA! Long time no see! We fly with each engine using fuel from it's respective tank. Crossfeeds are only used when there is a fuel imbalance sit
31 BA777 : CX, I take it you must be (semi) badly affected by the SARS? You were saying how Cathay had parked a lot of 777s... Henry
32 Cx flyboy : Henry, I have done two sectors this month, and next week I get 4 sectors. After that, the rest of the month is all reserve. Just 4 sectors on two trip
33 Post contains images Sudden : Hm... maybe they will use you as a dustbuster soon then. As your 777's will sure collect some if they are grounded. Well, that was probably not fun fo
34 Post contains images BA777 : CX, Must be the best job in the world. Henry
35 Tg 747-300 : Rick767: i thought you were due to start working with EK this year. Is that still the plan, or are you going to fly for BY for some more years? tg 747
36 Rick767 : Tg 747-300, I should be so lucky! That plan was subject to getting into Emirates, which I didn't manage to do. They asked me to re-apply in another co
37 Tg 747-300 : Is EK a very popular airline to apply for for experienced pilots. If thats the fact, why? Maybe EK is quite liberal with nationality so that people fr
38 Post contains images Rick767 : Emirates has (I understand) the largest number of nationalities in their pilots of any airline in the world. Lots of Australians and Brits (the Chief
39 Cx flyboy : I would say that Emirates now is similar to what Cathay was 15-20 years ago with very short command times (We had a 29yr old Cv880 captain at one stag
40 ConcordeBoy : CX_FB, is the VNAV problem present on any of the 773As at all? If so, that's rather odd as no one's ever mounted GE90s to that model.
41 Cx flyboy : ConcordeBoy, The problem exists on all our 777 fleet. Not sure why, if there are no GE90 powered ones.
42 Post contains images BA777 : Oh well, Up the Trents Rick_767, Could you email me again please, would like to ask a few more questions if possible (henry.lidster@btinternet.com) TI
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