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Prop Jet Take-off From Mid-runway?  
User currently offlineUnited777 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1657 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 7459 times:

Hi all

I was just wondering why prop aircraft like the Q300 or Q400 have to go to the end of the runway to take-off when they need just half the runway most of the time. I was flying from SEA-BOI on a Q400 and we had departed from RW16L in Seattle. We taxied for about a few minutes but while doing so I was just wondering why these small regional aircraft can't get clearance to depart from the middle of the runway. Is it more of a safety issue these small prop jets can't do so.



38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline744rules From Belgium, joined Mar 2002, 407 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 7416 times:

runway lenght is useless when it is behind you in case of emergency

User currently offlineAirbus Lover From Malaysia, joined Apr 2000, 3248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7358 times:

Yup 744rules is correct. In case of a RTO (Rejected Take Off) you would need runway length. and If you did an interesection take off, you might not have enough time to stop even though you might be far before V1 and have no choice but to rotate!

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7343 times:

I don't belive any ATC will tell you to take-off mid-field.

That being said, I have heard them politely ask if it was acceptable.

Up here in ANC......

Often the Medevac flights, (Metro, Merlin, King Air, Lear 25 and 35) will go ahead an launch out of 24L at Foxtrot or Echo, which is the entrance to South Airpark where most are base.

Just saves that much taxi time, and they don't need that 1500 feet or so, they still have something like 8500 to play with.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7242 times:

Mid field T/O is quite common at YVR for Dash 8 100s, and 300s on runway 26L.

User currently offlineScootertrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 569 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7251 times:

I personally don't like intersection takeoffs with allot of runway behind me. I have to think, how would it look in the accident report if something went wrong? I like to have lots of pavement to deal with a problem on the ground, even though I fly an airplane that is a really good short field performer.

User currently offlineViflyer From US Virgin Islands, joined May 1999, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7220 times:

More than likely Horizon doesn't have the take off performace charts for a mid-runway takeoff out of SEA. I know in ORD depending on the winds, they use rwy 32L from taxiway T10, which is only 3/4 of the runway (8800 Ft available I think), and the only way we can do that is that we have the performance charts for rwy 32L for the whole length and from T10 for the EMB.


I reject your reality and subsitute my own
User currently offlineBen From Switzerland, joined Aug 1999, 1391 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7222 times:

"There is nothing as useless as runway behind you" .. that goes for both takeoffs and landings.

Along the lines of what Scootertrash says, how are you going to explain it to the owner when you give them back a bent aircraft?


User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7216 times:

I've seen a few instances where operating specs allowed for intersection takeoffs as long as 9000' was still available.

This was to specifically deal with some 14 and 15 thousand foot long runways -- in short, it was felt that constantly taxiing another mile would in the long run create more wear and tear and potential hazard than by operating off of 9000 of runway (this was with Beech 99's). It was always PIC's discretion,though.

Steve


User currently offlineScootertrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 569 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7136 times:

In the airline (FAR part 121) world it is pretty easy to decide whether to perform an intersection takeoff. It is not even legal unless you have specific performance numbers for that intersection which tell you it is ok to go at your particular weight.

Even if I have the numbers, I usually try to talk the captain out of intersection takeoffs with substantial runway behind me. "Hey, we get paid by the minute, and going to the end will be worth at least .1!" I usually say.


User currently offlineAJ From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2386 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days ago) and read 7128 times:

As V1 cannot exceed rotate in a transport category aircraft once you rotate you are committed to flight, insurance company lawyers would tear you to shreds if you aborted after this point and put the aircraft back on the remaining runway unless a greater emergency existed.

User currently offlineWagz From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 516 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days ago) and read 7104 times:
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If I'm not mistaken, I remember seeing Dash 8s and other props depart runway 35 at PHL from taxiway K, leaving them maybe 4500 to 5000 feet (Runway is only 5459 feet total). I'm assuming this done so departing aircraft don't intefere with 27R arrivals, as the 35 threshold is just beyond the intersection with 27R. Arrivals on 35 crossing in front of arrivals on 27R can get hairy sometimes, as I've seen many go-arounds and even last minte 90º left turns by 35 traffic to land on 27L (traffic permitting).

Joe Wagner



I think Big Foot is blurry, Its not the photographers fault. Theres a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside
User currently offlineScootertrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 569 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (11 years 3 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7117 times:

Wagz:

You are not mistaken... We do that in the dash all the time. It is not always possible in the -300 series, especially if it is warm. I don't have a problem with it in the "short" dashes because 500' is really not an appreciable amount of runway for a Dash 8.


User currently offline2000first From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (11 years 3 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7039 times:

I have been on a BMI 734 that took off from half way down the runway at BFS. There were only about 30 passengers on board at the time and we seemed to take off pretty quickly. For those of you who are familiar with BFS we started out take off from the poibt directly opposite the viewing gallery, which i am sure is exactly half way down the approx 9000ft runway!

User currently offlinePositive rate From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 2143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (11 years 3 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6963 times:

On my last flight ADL-MEL on a DJ 737-700 we did an intersection departure from hold point D1 runway 23. I was amazed that the 737 could take off in such short a distance and this was in summer with about an 80% load capacity on board. Total runway length is 3,100 metres, so i guess we would have taken off at about the 2,000-2,500 metre point. I've also seen other 737 NG's doing the same.

User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (11 years 3 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6952 times:

The airport authority is many times the regulating authority as regards intersection takeoffs, generally due to noise considerations.
The FAA will approve providing takeoff performance is available for the operation of the respective airline.
For example, PSA many years ago very often departed mid-field with Lockheed Electra aircraft from 25L/R in LAX, because the FAA approved, takeoff performance was available, and the LosAngeles Department of Airports also approved the operation.


User currently offlineJetskipper From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6855 times:

At CLE it is pretty common for all aircraft including mainline aircraft to depart from 24l at intersection N or 6L from W, but as previously stated we are given the performance charts for that specific intersection and have the required start-stop distance plus a large buffer.

User currently offlineMusang From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 861 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6813 times:

On the jumpseat of a SAA 743 about 18 months ago, Cape Town to J'burg, we were no 3 to leave the ramp behind a 732 and a 722, which both turned left and went to the full length. We just headed straight from the ramp out to the runway, turned right and launched southeast bound. Airborne in about half the runway remaining, very impressive.

Don't have any CPT charts to hand so can't quote distances, but any aircraft's performance is going to be good with less than half a pax load and minimal fuel (it was replacing two 737 flights).

I'm a firm believer in runway behind being as useful as fuel in the bowser and altitude above you, and will always take full length unless there's an considerable performance surplus.

Regards - Musang


User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6202 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6782 times:

Call me paranoid if you want, but I don't even do intersection takeoffs in my Piper Cub anymore. I take every piece of pavement they'll give me. The cub doesn't even need 1000ft to takeoff, but if the runway is 14000ft, I'll take every bit of it. If the engine quits, it gives me far more options and margin of safety. And I'm part 91, so I basically make up my own rules.


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineJustplanesmart From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 718 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6767 times:

I know that Horizon Air used to have their DHC-8-100's take-off from the intersection at SEA frequently. However, after the USAir/Metroliner collision in 1991, there were restriction placed on intersection take-offs, although these were primarily nighttime/low-vis situations, as I recall. It maybe that some airports have chosen tighter rules, or it might be that the DHC-8-Q400 needs more runway.


"So many planes; so little time..."
User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3634 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6777 times:
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I'm pretty sure IslandAir and Pacific Wings do intersection takeoffs on 8L from Lima in HNL during regular tradewind weather. I also remember seeing a Pacific Wings Caravan takeoff from Lima during kona weather. HA's 717's and AQ's 737's also do intersection takeoffs on 26R from Echo during kona weather. But then, 8L/26R is 12,357 ft long and taking off from Lima would probably give you somewhere around 7000 ft in the 8L direction and over 5000 ft in the 26R direction, which should be more than enough for the Dash 8 and Caravan. Both planes and the 717 fly to Molokai where the main runway is only 4494 ft long. From Echo, you have about 10,000 ft of runway and the 717's and 737's are off the ground by about Lima, so they even have a lot of space if they do a RTO.

I can probably guess that IslandAir and Pacific Wings do intersection takeoffs to ensure the proper spacing from landing planes and the interisland jets due to their slower speed.


User currently offlineJA54123 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 137 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6728 times:

At my hometown airport, AMA (Rick Husband Amarillo International Airport in Amarillo, TX-- http://www.amarillo-cvb.org/airport.html ), I have seen mid-field takeoffs quite a few times. The runway is 13,502'x300' & the only airline that does these type of takeoffs is Southwest. American Eagle (ERJ145), Delta Connection(CRJ200), Continental Express(ERJ145) & United Express(Beech1900) all seem to always taxi to the end of the runway and use the full thing, usually lifting off less than halfway down it. Southwest on the other hand will taxi from the terminal, which is located at approximately midfield, straight to the runway and take off from there with their 737s of various types. As I have been flying on these Southwest aircraft a few times when they took off midfield & I kind of wondered about the safety of taking off on a hot July day in a 737-200 fully loaded from this point, but it seems to work.


You wouldn't understand, it's a Texas Thang!
User currently offlineL1011 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1670 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6658 times:
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When I was in Frankfurt, Germany, in the sixties, Lufthansa Convair 440s often took off from the middle of the runway, but other prop planes such as Turkish DC-7Bs and KLM Electras didn't.

Bob Bradley
Richmond, VA



Fly Eastern's Golden Falcon DC-7B
User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6592 times:

Intersection takeoffs are against my airline policy, and my own... under all circumstances, and even when I flew for other companies, I always took full length of the runway... even if the company permitted intersection takeoffs...
xxx
When I train pilots on the line, I INSIST that they line-up on the runway with a MINIMUM amount of runway length wasted to do so... A tail which is above the "grass" when lined-up, brings a big smile on my face...
xxx
... besides, I am paid by "block time"... I taxi slow, and go "to the end"...  Big grin
(s) Skipper


User currently offlineJj From Algeria, joined Jun 2001, 1227 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6483 times:

Skipper

You may have a point in your last comment!  Smile At least I'm sure that Aerolineas does use the whole runway! =) I actually hate intersection take-offs... plus it brings up a new thing: If an accident similar to MJ3142 back in 99 should happen again, but the pilot had been taking off from an intersection, I'm sure I wouldn't be happy to say the least...


25 RightWayUp : What is wrong with intersection departures? If you take full length you will only reduce thrust more, and probably end up losing an engine at V1 in th
26 Herman : In Singapore Changi Airport(WSSS), the ATC cleared a prop plane for take-off using half of the runway but instead it turn into the wrong direction for
27 Scootertrash : RightWayUp: What is wrong with an intersection takeoff is that anytime you leave runway behind you are eliminating options in an emergency. Most turbo
28 XXXX10 : I bet no-one has ever seen an A340 do an intersection take off
29 L-188 : I caught the first minutes of an intersection takeoff of a China Air A340 here in ANC. Unfortunatly rather then turning right to go up runway 32 here,
30 Rick767 : "What is wrong with intersection departures? If you take full length you will only reduce thrust more, and probably end up losing an engine at V1 in t
31 Post contains images KLAX : I bet no-one has ever seen an A340 do an intersection take off I have, and it was deliberate F-WWCA the A340-600 demonstrator does it often here At LA
32 Post contains images B747skipper : Dear Rick - xxx Looks like your airline and my airline have different philosophies... you can take it personally - against me... since when I joined A
33 Post contains images B747skipper : Forgot to mention, Rick... xxx Another thing that we do down here is "improved climb" when we have excess runway to increase the climb (performance) l
34 Post contains images Rick767 : Skipper, Every airline has their own policy in this regard, and that is to be respected of course. I have done very few intersection departures in my
35 Scootertrash : Several years ago, I was fortunate to do some B737 training at the UAL training center at DEN. Then (and would imagine now as well) had a procedure ca
36 Rick767 : I think what you are referring to would simply be regarded a "Flap 5" takeoff on the 757/767... results in a higher rotate speed but a better second s
37 Post contains images B747skipper : Improved climb (or sometimes named "improved performance") - example (747) Runway limit weight 350 tonnes (flaps 20) Climb limit weight (2nd segment)
38 Rick767 : Skipper, Thanks for the description, very interesting procedure. I wonder if any US 757/767 operators use that at all (HAL?). As you guessed they "mis
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