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"Closed In" Departure Proc.?  
User currently offlineCOexpress From United States of America, joined May 2001, 32 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2300 times:

On one of the IND departure procedures, I saw the term "Closed In" DP. What exactly are they. Another question that I have about DPs in general is the altitudes that are listed on various segments of the DP. Are those altitudes mandatory? They look like an MEA, but I am not sure.

Also, are the altitudes listed on that STARS mandatory also?

11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineShaun3000 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2232 times:

If the number is underlined, it's an MEA. If the line is above the number, it's an altitude restriction. If lines above and below, you fly that altitude. That would usually be a block altitude, with the top number being the upper limit, the bottom being the lower limit.

Yes, they are mandatory altitudes if you are flying the published DP or STAR. Mandatory as in you can't decend below (or climb above, as the case may be) the altitude given for a specific segment.


User currently offlineM717 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 608 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2202 times:

Many STARs have altitudes that are "expect" altitudes. For example, an intersection may have beside it "Turbojets expect to cross at 11000 and 250 kts". In this case, this is not a mandatory altitude. It is only for planning purposes. An ATC clearance is required to initiate a descent to this altitude.

User currently offlineSAS-A321 From Denmark, joined Mar 2002, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2198 times:

"If the number is underlined, it's an MEA. If the line is above the number, it's an altitude restriction."

Depends on what charts you are using! On SAS flight charts it says MAX and MNM.



It's Scandinavian
User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2200 times:

Absolutely I was just about to say what SAS-A321 said, it entirely depends on the charts you are using.

And you can descend below or climb above altitudes marked on the STAR or SID charts, with ATC approval.



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineCOexpress From United States of America, joined May 2001, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2199 times:

the charts that I am referring to are JEPPS. I am looking at a DP for Cincinnati, OH. In the whitewater 3 DP, the segment between the CVG VOR and Brickyard VHP have 10000 for an alt. There is no line around, below, or above this number. Is that alt. manditory? Like I said, these are JEPPS.

I will pose my first question again also: Exactly what is a "Closed IN" DP? I saw this one on the JEPP charts for IND.


User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2193 times:

"Is that alt. manditory?"

No, the furst number underneath the transition track (dashed) is the MEA (Minimum Enroute Altitude) for that leg.

Which chart for IND are you looking at with the "closed in" procedure. This might help me work out what it is.



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineCOexpress From United States of America, joined May 2001, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2180 times:

the chart was the Rocky Two Dp. for Indianapolis. The "Closed IN" phrase is written in the Noise abatment section of the chart. What is that?

User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2182 times:

Not a US pilot so can't really help you here. The full text reads:

NOISE ABATEMENT PROCEDURE (TURBOJETS):
Excess of 75000lbs, Airport Operator requests
the use of "Close-in" departure procedures in
accordance with FAA Advisory Circular 91-53A,
Noise Abatement Departure Profile.

So you need to get your hands on the Circular... Probably something like straight ahead to 3,000ft AAL before level acceleration, 1,500ft for Climb thrust... or something...!



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineM717 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 608 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2168 times:

I have provided a link to AC-91-53A below if anyone is interested. (On the page, you must click on the Adobe symbol, and the AC opens in PDF format.)

It outlines the recommended procedure for a close-in noise abatement departure procedure. In a nutshell, it recommends reducing power at no less than 800 feet AGL, maintaining the flap/slat config., lowering pitch to prevent the speed from decaying to no less than all engine climb speed -5 kts (but in no case less than V2) while maintaining the minimum climb gradient required. Maintain this power/speed configuration until 3000 feet AGL, then accelerate and clean up. Turns are permitted in accordance with the applicable DP.

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/ACNumber/974DB46D626FBAF6862569E70077C92B?OpenDocument


User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2173 times:

That is the same procedure we use on every takeoff on the 757/767 in BY.

Climb @ V2+15 and full TO thrust to 1,500 AAL, select climb thrust
Climb @ V2+15 and CLB thrust to 3,000 AAL, accelerate to climb speed and retract flaps on the schedule.

We only stray from this procedure if a (more restrictive) noise abatement technique is required by the Airport Authority. It creates the smallest noise footprint for a given departure.



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineM717 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 608 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2221 times:

Rick,

We used the same procedure on the 757 at JMC. Here in the states, it depends on the airport. For example, at ATL, they want you to accelerate to 250 kts as soon as possible. Therefore, we accelerate and clean up at 1000 ft AGL. However, at most airports, it is climb power until 3000 ft, then accelerate and clean up.


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