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How Do They Fix The Damage?  
User currently offlineJeff714 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 9 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 years 4 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7670 times:

One of the pics posted today shows an AA 757 at SNA with some damage. How is the damage repaired? By that I mean John Wayne is a little airport and I don't think they have any repair facilities. Are there roving structural mechanics for just such things? I apologize if this question has been asked before.

59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 4 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7603 times:

It depends on where the damage is, and how severe. The aircraft is inspected, and if the damage doesn't exceed certain criteria, it probably can be "maintenance ferried" to a site where the airline has repair facilities. No passengers, or even flight attendants, are allowed on a MX ferry, just the flightcrew. One of the airline's maintenance controllers and a flight dispatcher must authorize the flight, and the paperwork is then sent to the station for the captain.

One of the common flight restrictions for an aircraft with fuselage damage is that the aircraft must remain unpressurized. That usually limits the aircraft to a max altitude of 10,000 feet, and we crank that into the fuel planning for the flight to the repair facility. Other restrictions might involve avoidance of icing conditions, limiting operations to day-only, or cloud-free conditions.

Some types of damage require fixing the aircraft wherever it is. For example, if someone drives a tug into an engine cowling, the cowling will most likely need to be changed on-site, which means a new cowling will get trucked in, and then replaced. If the airline doesn't have its own mechanics at that airport, it'll fly some in to accomplish the repair.

I'll let the maintenance types chime in re: how much damage is too much for a MX ferry, but I've covered the general items...



User currently offlineJETPILOT From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3130 posts, RR: 29
Reply 2, posted (11 years 4 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7542 times:

In Miami a Tower air 747 had a wing fire which burned a whole right through the wing.

Boeing came to miami with several tractor trailers, erected a tent over the wing, and worked for about a month 24 hours a day repairing the wing.

Very amazing to watch. I thought the plane would be written off.

JET


User currently offlineBrusselsSouth From Belgium, joined Aug 2001, 628 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (11 years 4 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7532 times:

Just for illusration :


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Serge Bailleul
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Adrian Casaula



Regards
BrusselsSouth


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (11 years 4 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7491 times:

Also on the subject of Boeing on-site repairs, the most extensive one I've ever heard of was the JAL 747 at ANC sometime back in the 1980s. The 747 has skidded off an icy runway/taxiway and was completely off the runway, and at least 1 or 2 engines had been separated, plus lots of other damage. In the dead of winter, Boeing brought all sorts of personnel, tools, and parts, erected tents, and started the work. It took several months, but IIRC, they essentially rebuilt the 747 from the floorline down. The final bill was about $6 million USD less than the cost of a new 747 then, so I guess the insurance company was happy.

The 747 repair that BrusslesSouth mention is also a good example, and makes me wonder why similar repairs weren't accomplished on the USAirways 767 (N654US) at PHL a couple of years ago. (The aircraft had an uncontained #1 engine failure during an overnight run-up by MX, and the ensuing fire got the wing). Maybe the fire damage, or the schrapnel damage (and there was plenty) was too much, or maybe nobody wanted the future liability for the repair. The aircraft ended up be written off and scrapped on-site.


User currently offlineJeff714 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 9 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (11 years 4 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7439 times:

Thanks for the quick replies and the info.

User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (11 years 4 months 22 hours ago) and read 7380 times:

I remember an incident about four years ago @ FL where a tug driver running bags collided with the nose of a DC-9 (the driver ignored the marshaller, and also broke the rule about driving under jetways). It shattered the nose cone, and damaged the front pressure bulkhead, and most of the avionics. The estimated repair cost was like $2 million, and since the plane was being retired in a little more than a month, they decided to ferry it out to the desert earlier than they planned. They fixed it up enough to fly it out to AZ. The pilots followed the 10,000 ft. rule, and got into some bad weather over TX, and came close to crashing the a/c.

User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 4 months 21 hours ago) and read 7367 times:

Dear Jeff -
xxx
A type of situation, that you might not be aware of - engine "out" ferries - that is, flying an aircraft (for the purpose of repairing/replacing an engine somewhere else) with a failed engine... only 3 and 4 engine aircraft are legal to be flown with a failed engine, 2 engine airplanes cannot do that...
xxx
Like our friend OPNLguy mentioned, in case of maintenance ferry flights, we bring a flight crew qualified to do engine-out ferries, no passengers or flight attendants are permitted on board for that purpose...
xxx
This is one great advantage of 3 and 4 engine airplanes versus the "twins", there may be a fairly new 777, one day, making an emergency landing on a small island somewhere, that very well might be scrapped, because it cannot, under any circumstance, be flown out of there...
xxx
I have done a few engine-out ferries of 747s in my life, and once, a 707... other than being extremely careful for takeoff contingencies, ferrying with an engine-out does not present too many problems... Here in Argentina, all our 747 crews are engine-out ferry qualified, except captains with limited experience on the that type of aircraft.
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
(s) Skipper


User currently offlineM717 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 608 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (11 years 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 7352 times:

"This is one great advantage of 3 and 4 engine airplanes versus the "twins", there may be a fairly new 777, one day, making an emergency landing on a small island somewhere, that very well might be scrapped, because it cannot, under any circumstance, be flown out of there..."

This is a most unlikely scenario, and would occur only in a most dire set of circumstances, where the alternative would have the aircraft "scrapped" already. ETOPS flight and diversion planning don't consider airports where the aircraft "cannot, under any circumstances, be flown out of there".


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (11 years 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 7336 times:

>>>ETOPS flight and diversion planning don't consider airports where the aircraft "cannot, under any circumstances, be flown out of there".

I think he made his statement solely in the context of not being able to single-engine ferry a twin anywhere...

Either of you two guys recall the Eastern L-1011 that was on a 2-engine ferry from Mexico City-Miami eons ago? They lost a second engine (can't recall if it was just past V1, or after they were airborne and on the climbout) and they came back to land on a single engine. Hot day too, IIRC. Must have been something to see...


User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 34
Reply 10, posted (11 years 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 7320 times:

My hats off to the sheetmetal/structural mechanics. These guys are truly the miracle workers of the airlines. These guys definitely don't get the credit or recognition they deserve. The systems guys fix the systems, but the structures guy fix the airplane. A little kid watching my dad fix the car might describe the awe I feel for these artisans. They work from the airplane, structural repair manual, which when I look through it, might be similer to a layman reading a complex system schematic or wiring diagram, it's over my head, but oh so interesting.


You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineM717 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 608 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (11 years 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 7315 times:

OPNLguy,

I see your point. I guess it was the "under any circumstances" that threw me.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

I don't recall the L-1011 incident you mentioned (I've only been around for half an eon  Big grin), however I think there are some guys around here that probably do. I'll see if I can dredge up some details.


User currently offlineB747Skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (11 years 4 months 19 hours ago) and read 7296 times:

Oh OPNLguy - I am an old fart - I am sure our friend M717 did not mean it the bad way - I am quite sociable... and always smiling...
xxx
The problem is, in being old fashion as I am, I only want to fly airplanes (i.e. 747) with 3 cockpit flight crews (no flight engineer does not exist for me) and with 3 or 4 engines, I swim well but cannot do it from the middle of the ocean to the nearest shores... ETOPS still is engines "turning" or... pilots swimming - at least with my philosophy from the last century... and don't you tell me I was flying with the Wright Bros. and gave pilot training to von Richtoffen...  Smile
xxx
I know we have a lot of A-330, 767 or 777 admirers here, so I shall stay quiet with my 4-engined Boeingosaurus...
xxx
Happy contrails -
(s) Skipper


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (11 years 4 months 19 hours ago) and read 7279 times:

"... so I shall stay quiet with my 4-engined Boeingosaurus..."

You meanlike the one right on top of the page? Big grin



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineMr Spaceman From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 2787 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (11 years 4 months 18 hours ago) and read 7276 times:

Hi guys.

Here's 2 photos of the American Airlines 757 at SNA that Jeff714 was talking about. It was damaged when a fire truck rolled into it!  Nuts


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Michael Carter
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Michael Carter



I wonder how long this 757's repairs will take?

Check out the "substantial damage" to the fuselage of this Delta Airlines MD-88. The accident occured when the tug "jackknifed" and hit the jet during pushback at the Denver Intl Airport on April 22, 2003. Poor airplane!  Sad


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jarett Sirko



Here's the Delta MD-88's NTSB report.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030501X00608&key=1

I wonder how long it will take the sheetmetal / structural mechanics to repair the 4 ft X 2 ft hole that was torn in her side?

Chris  Smile



"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 15, posted (11 years 4 months 18 hours ago) and read 7262 times:

I dug up another example of truck vs. airplane, hope you don't mind the download time:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rogério Carvalho


"That´s gotta hurt!!!" Quite true, actually.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (11 years 4 months 17 hours ago) and read 7230 times:

Many years ago a 733 ran off the runway at Roenne Airport on the island Bornholm in the Baltic Sea. If I remember well the gear collapsed, and both fuselage and one wing and one engine were severely damaged.

Boeing technicians worked on the site probably for a couple of months, and then the plane was as good as new.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineAtlamt From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 240 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (11 years 4 months 15 hours ago) and read 7195 times:

The MD88 Mr Spaceman posted a pic of was out of service for 14 days including the NTSB investigation.


Fwd to MCO and Placard
User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2554 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (11 years 4 months 13 hours ago) and read 7165 times:

That 757 damage wasn't very bad. I quick guess is the replaced the slat, replaced the fillet fairing with maybe a repair to the fairing support. It doesn't look like they got into the belly of the plane. As for our poor Delta MD-88 yes that took some time and some guys from Base mint in ATL made a lot of OT on that job. I was at work the night it happened. The engineers were down in our overhaul bay looking at our plane to see what was involved. Meanwhile a eighteen wheeler flatbed was loading up with jacks, shoring and the hydraulic mule to swing the gear. We all went into the office to see the pictures. The one posted here isn't the best view, but it's the only one someone outside of the company took.

That job was a good bit of work I bet. What is the most fun part of doing it? Cutting into the side of the plane is cool. After you clean the hole up you just stand back and say what a mother of a hole that is. The real trick is a good layout. The Structural Repair Manual(SRM) is very general for most repairs, that maybe why some guys are overwhelmed by it. It usually says make the doubler(the patch) out of one gauge thicker metal and will call out for three rows of fasteners around the edge. It will tell you what type of fastener, typically rivets and hilocks. The SRM is general so you tailor the repair to your damage. If your smart you lay out the cut to make the fasteners fall in easy to reach places. It isn't always possible, but you try when you can. The other caveat is to do no more harm. I've seen many jobs grow to larger repair due to a sloppy drill or ziz wheel.

Repairs like the one on the MD-88 above aren't really hard. The just take some planning and patience.



User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (11 years 4 months 13 hours ago) and read 7151 times:
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Great thread. Sorry I don't know much about it, but I have to say, this has to be one of the most original threads I have read in a LONG TIME.  Big thumbs up

Are there any images out there of DAMAGED aircraft up in the air?? flying or being ferried. Must be remarkable!



Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (11 years 4 months 11 hours ago) and read 7126 times:

For the obvious PR reasons (as well as not to upset regular schedules) such ferry flights usually take place at night.


I wish I were flying
User currently offline737doctor From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1332 posts, RR: 38
Reply 21, posted (11 years 4 months 10 hours ago) and read 7116 times:

Speaking of three-engine ferries, here is link to an incident of which I was intimately aware. I know the mechanic that signed off the MX release. He was watching while the aircraft made its takeoff roll and was horrified as the plane crashed. It affected him very deeply. I was working in SLC at the time and met the FO's widow. He was from Utah and fairly new with the company; after her husband's death, she came out to see one of our other airplanes to get a better sense of what her husband did for a living. I'll never forget the look in her eyes.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001207X02949&key=1



Patrick Bateman is my hero.
User currently offlineRyu2 From Taiwan, joined Aug 2002, 492 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (11 years 4 months 10 hours ago) and read 7108 times:

How about the QANTAS 747-400 at BKK? That must have been quite a job too right? Does anyone have details of how they repaired it, and how much was onsite?

User currently offlineN949WP From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2000, 1437 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (11 years 4 months 8 hours ago) and read 7085 times:

On October 18, 1983, a Lufthansa Cargo 742F (D-ABYU) aborted a takeoff (probably at speeds above V1) on runway 13 at Kai Tak. Whether by accident or on purpose, it veered off the runway onto soft ground right at the end of the runway (possibly avoiding a splashdown into the harbour). The nose gear and the wing-mounted main gears collapsed, punching huge holes into the lower fuselage and through to the main cargo deck. All four engines and pylons were also torn from the wings. I remembered it spending almost a year in HKG being rebuilt. Had it not been such a young aircraft at the time (only 2-years old), it would almost certainly have been scrapped.








More pics here: http://www.aviationpics.de/oops/2001/lh_vhhh/lh_vhhh.htm

'949


User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4490 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (11 years 4 months 8 hours ago) and read 7071 times:

Are there any images out there of DAMAGED aircraft up in the air?? flying or being ferried. Must be remarkable!

Judging from the patchwork I've seen on many, many airplanes...I'm sure there are quite a few in the database!

As for planes flying around "with damage"....I don't think I've seen any. It would be cool to see an airplane flying around with industrial-strength duct tape over a hole in the fuselage  Smile/happy/getting dizzy



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
25 Shark : For the obvious PR reasons (as well as not to upset regular schedules) such ferry flights usually take place at night. Ferry flights happen whenever n
26 MD-11 forever : @B747skipper Although I'm much younger than you, and in a different area of aviation woking, I do agree with your "old fashioned" views regarding the
27 Post contains images B747Skipper : Thanks, Thomas - old fashion for me, means conservative for safety reasons, that is all. I am not necessarily against airplanes with 2 engines, and wi
28 Jwenting : Ferry flights happen whenever needed. If the A/C needs to be ferried the schedules already upset. Of course, but you don't want to upset the airport s
29 MD-11 forever : B747Skipper I agree 100% with your views (maybe I'm a bit biased, as becoming an F/E was my childhood dream......). @Jwenting "Of course, but you don'
30 Dalmd88 : There has been a lot of talk about Ferry flights in this thrread. Most of the planes mentioned in this thread could not have been ferried. You can't j
31 Goingboeing : Dalmd88 - the accident that 737doctor linked to was an engine out ferry flight (707). They discussed this accident in Flying magazines "Aftermath" col
32 JohnM : I have witnessed a 3 engine ferry flight in which the outboard engine was removed. The outboard engine (can't remember #1 or #4) had an uncontained fa
33 Post contains images B747Skipper : A 3-engine ferry of a 747 works like this, with outboard engine failed: Boeing procedure (some airlines change procedure slightly)... xxx Maximum take
34 Spacepope : IIRC, there was a DC-8 3 engine ferry that ended quite badly back at MCI in the early 90's. I remember them trucking away the wreckage on semis, it wa
35 B747Skipper : If I remember well, it was an accident with an ATI aircraft... Dont remember the specifics, but was a real mess of circumstances... (s) Skipper
36 OPNLguy : >>> if anyone can find a link to the report, it would be greatly appreciated. Uh, it's in reply #21 of this very thread.... We studied this accident i
37 Srbmod : One of the more unusual ferry flights I ever heard about was with an AirTran DC-9. The plane was stuck on the ground @ CAK with a MX issue that would
38 Post contains images B747Skipper : There are only 3 bolts holding a 747 engine to its wing-mount attachment... (s) Skipper
39 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : It would be cool to see an airplane flying around with industrial-strength duct tape Perhaps you should review pics of UAL 757s then
40 AAR90 : From AAPILOTS website: --------------- 757 STRUCK BY FIRE TRUCK AT SNA The 757 had pushed back from gate 9 and started engines in preparation for take
41 Post contains links and images ConcordeBoy : As for flying with patchwork... View Large View MediumPhoto © José Ramón Valero - IBERIAN SPOTTERS
42 Cloudy : Southwest has had only one writeoff(or "hull loss"), I believe it was in Burbank...What was the particular damage that caused that 733 to get written
43 Post contains links OPNLguy : Re: N668SW, I heard the keel beam was compromised, buckling the fuselage... http://www.airliners.net/open.file/075094/M/
44 Post contains images CPH-R : I'd like to see what they did to this one! My guess is that it was written off, or that a hefty repair bill was paid. Love the comment on the last one
45 Post contains links Aloges : According zo Bill Harms' Census, HZ-AIO was written off: http://www.bird.ch/bharms/boeing/b747_f_0.htm ( >800 kB )
46 Post contains images B747Skipper : I assume many people like "true stories trivia" here about how to fix the damage... here is an extreme situation... xxx In China, during WW2 against t
47 Covert : Cloudy, when you whack your car your insurance company will estimate the cost of repairs to the damage and assess it against the vehicles fair market
48 747Teach : Jeff714: Most of the pictures you see here are of substantial damage, but you can still tell it's an airplane. If you do a search about a TWA 707 that
49 Avioniker : There's one ferry flight I'd love to see a picture of... There was an STC being developed for a non-Boeing cargo door installation on a 747. The plane
50 Post contains images B747skipper : That was a "GATX Door" - and the airplane was (and might still be) with Evergreen Int'l Cargo... This conversion to cargo configuration was made to nu
51 Post contains links and images CitationJet : Here is a three engine 747 ferry flight. Try that with a twin engine. View Large View MediumPhoto © Norman Gage
52 Dc10hound : Don't know why, but without some more details I can't track down exactly what maintenance was required/performed. More info: The aircraft has "substan
53 AAR90 : DC10Hound, do you know the nose number of the damaged aircraft? The incident is not listed on the Morning Situation Reports and all SNA departures for
54 Dc10hound : AAR90: Don't know about any spares but the nose number is 5DK. The aircraft is listed on the OTS report in SABRE. Decision time for ETR has been moved
55 Post contains links and images A320-Tech : Avionicer & B747 Skipper, I had the 'distinct'(?) please of being the Flight Mechanic on N472EV for the first month of service after the ADs & EOs wer
56 Post contains images B747skipper : Dear A320Tech... xxx I keep track of these cargo airplanes that ACMIed to ARG - since many are not quite "desirable" - dear Del Smith, or Connie will
57 L-188 : What three years was that aircraft at Marana. I took a tour there in 96 before they moved the warbirds up to McMinnville. There was a 747 that was par
58 B747skipper : N472 was a weird TWA machine (to EV's fleet) - i.e. flaps limited to 25 (30 flaps setting were blocked) - switches "upside down", like all "foreign ai
59 A320-Tech : L-188, I was at MZJ for 4 years from 94-98 and the aircraft came in when the AD took effect (I want to say 96) and it was Del's intention to get it ba
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