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Go-arounds-- Are They Common?  
User currently offlineANA777master From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 126 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2772 times:

I was at DCA last weekend watching an Embraer rj coming in on approach and he suddenly aborted when over Gravelly point. I then looked to the runway and saw a 737 sitting there on the end of the runway doing nothing. The Embraer jetted off directly SW and didn't appear to come back (Unless I missed it coming back in).
Who was probably at fault here? Was anyone fined, and how much, if so? It was really shocking to see such an obvious error. Is this common?

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2756 times:

Well done precautionary go arounds are indeed "shocking."  Insane

Most likely somebody was just a little slow in doing what they needed to do. Maybe the 737 was position and hold for departure and another aircraft was not yet clear of the runway so he wasn't able to start his takeoff. I seriously doubt anyone was fined. Go arounds in your presented situation, while indeed serious, are not dramatic events or "obvious error"s. They're just what you have to do if you can't land for some reason.


User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2726 times:

I heard an intersting conversation on my scanner at MCI a couple of weeks ago...a Frontier jet was cleared to takeoff and a Delta jet was cleared to land. The Frontier jet sat for quite a while until the tower gave him his takeoff clearance again and mentioned the MD-88 on final. The Frontier jet still sat...the tower called again and asked if they were still ready and the pilot responded (with a chuckle) "Yeah, were still ready". The tower told him that that MD88 was getting pretty close, at which point the Frontier apparently began it's takeoff roll. Since this was on the far runways from me and I couldn't see exactly how close they were, I noticed that just as the Frontier jet appeared from behind the trees, the tower told the Delta jet to turn off at the next taxiway and the Delta pilot thanked him for the "help". Not a go around, but it was mere seconds from being one.

User currently offlineFredT From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 2185 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2679 times:

One runway and an aircraft cleared to land on it while another aircraft is still on the RWY? Not likely. Cleared for the approach, maybe?

But yeah, it does get tight at times. When the ATC expects quick action and really sqeueeze aircraft in tight and the superior judgement up front decides to pour a cup of coffee into the FMC after line-up...  Big grin

Cheers,
Fred



I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined exactly 15 years ago today! , 6835 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2668 times:

As anyone who listens to a scanner in the US knows, airliners are constantly cleared to land on runways where another aircraft is in position to take off. It's probably common for airliners to take off with two aircraft on approach behind them, both of which have received landing clearance. As for three-- well, that may not be common...

User currently offlineDragogoalie From Australia, joined Oct 2001, 1220 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2661 times:

In my opinion it would be a very bad practice to fine someone for doing a go around. Its true, go arounds are expensive for the airline, but if pilots were fined, it could lead to them being hesitant to initiate a go around when one is needed, which could cause some big smoking holes in the ground. I've only been on one missed aproach in an airliner. The flight crew stated that it was due to loss of aircraft separation. Go arounds really aren't a big deal, they happen. People who dont know much about aviation and/or have never actually flown think they are. A go around is not a bad decision, in fact its the exact opposite. If at any time you are unsure of whether a landing can be made safely you should go around. So you get a bit of ragging from guys in the hangar, its better than taking out runway lights, going through the cockpit of the aircraft in front of you, or many other possibilities.

--dragogoalie-#88--



Formerly known as Jap. Srsly. AUSTRALIA: 2 days!
User currently offlineMr.BA From Singapore, joined Sep 2000, 3423 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2653 times:

I'm not a pilot but I always believed a go around should be executed when it's necessary and the decision to should not be reversed once it's ordered by the pilot flying. There's no reason for airlines to fine pilots even if the go around was not caused by another aircraft on the runway... etc. It can be anything like strong gusting winds, poor weather conditions. After all it's the pilots that are flying the plane!


Boeing747 万岁!
User currently offlineANA777master From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2639 times:

Well, I think someone fucked-up and it's unacceptable

User currently offlineGoboeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2698 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2635 times:

About being issued landing clearance when there's aircraft on final in front of you landing and some on the runway...

Is there different procedures in other countries? As Timz said, I've always heard "cleared to land" almost every time a plane first checks in with the tower, regardless of how many planes are going to takeoff before they touchdown.

It seems like "cleared to land" would mean that if everything were to stay exactly as it is when that clearance was issued, the plane would still land okay. This is not the case if there's traffic on the runway.

I personally have been number 8 (eight!) to land in the traffic pattern at Nashua, NH. There's something funny about hearing the tower controller say "N##, number eight, cleared to land."

Nick


User currently offlinePositive rate From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 2143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2625 times:

I personally have been number 8 (eight!) to land in the traffic pattern at Nashua, NH. There's something funny about hearing the tower controller say "N##, number eight, cleared to land."

Indeed that would seem funny. Here in Australia that doesn't happen. You will only ever hear "N## Cleared to land" if you are number 1 for that runway and there is NO traffic on that runway at all. If you are number 2,3,4 etc. to land ATC say "N## continue approach, number 3 to land". Wouldn't the other method(US) seem confusing, i mean if ATC clears you to land who's responsibility is it to avoid the other aircraft in front of you and on the runway? Is that the US method only or is it practised in other countries too?



User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2622 times:

OK guys - let's get back to the basics here, before everyone goes on a long list of "oh, I have seen this" or "oh, I heard that on my scanner"...
xxx
Traffic right of way is this: an airplane landing has the "right of way"... if a conflict occurs, obviously there will be a go-around, but the pilot that should be fined is the airplane taking the runway for a takeoff.
xxx
Obviously, the tower clearance to taxi position and hold - or line up and wait, is often at fault, yet it is the responsibility of the captain to judge that he indeed should abide by the clearance given by the tower, in view of the approaching traffic...
xxx
Just basic flying rules... maybe the first lesson about aviation rules...
xxx
(s) Skipper


User currently offlineN949WP From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2000, 1437 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2607 times:

At busy airports, it's commonplace for landing aircraft to come in hot on the heels of the preceding departure.....


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Samuel Lo



Well, sometimes they do get a bit too close for comfort......


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Photo © Colin Parker



'949


User currently offlineANA777master From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2556 times:

Thank you, Skipper, for your elucidation. I came to the conclusion that the ATC was at fault, although the 737 was just sitting there as if the captain was preparing a pre-flight martini.

User currently offlineAJ From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2391 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

I have done three go-arounds in jet aircraft, one at Heathrow and two at Sydney.
The one at Heathrow was caused by a British Airways 737 that conducted a rejected takeoff, no-one to blame, it just happens.
One of the go-arounds at Sydney was caused by a competitor that was cleared for an immediate takeoff and simply did not move. A string of similar events on other flights led us to believe that it may be a bit of industrial sabotage, very poor airmanship but again, no blame.
The most recent was due to a turboprop taking to long to vacate the runway as they taxied past the first taxiway. Due to a company 737 having a lineup clearance we had to go for a scenic tour of Sydney.
It is a fine balance for ATC between optimising movements and safe operations, and generally they do a very good job. If it results in a missed approach then it is not deliberate on their part. In my cases it sometimes caused by poor airmanship, a fault that carries no blame (except in the bar!).
It always seems to happen at the end of a long day so endless go-arounds in the simulator pay off!


User currently offlinePositive rate From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 2143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2545 times:

At GA airports it's extremely common for go-arounds to take place. The airport where i used to fly out of for during PPL training is the busiest in SA and during curcuit training you would routinely hear "VH-ABC follow the Cessna on downwind, number 8 to land". With 8-9 planes doing circuits on the same runway you find yourself having to go-around pretty often as the plane in front of you may ballon out on landing or something, plus the speed of the aircraft vary considerably too- my TB10 Tobago used to catch the PA28's and 172's all the time and i would need to bring the power back to slow down  Smile

User currently offlineBa299 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2003, 173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2533 times:

In my experience lot of time we get the clearance to land when the aircraft preceding you is still on the rwy o another aircraft are rolling for the take off.
But always in good weather condition never in low vis o cig condition.


User currently offlineANA777master From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2462 times:

What would have happened if the ERJ flew over the 737 and landed? It doesn't need a long deceleration area. I would have liked to see that.

User currently offlineStar_world From Ireland, joined Jun 2001, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2444 times:

I heard - and saw - an interesting situation at LHR a few weeks ago. They were using runway 27L for landings, and there was an Air China A340 following a BA aircraft to land. At the same time, there was a helicopter very close to the airfield, hovering about half a mile south of the half-way point on the runway waiting to land. ATC warned the Air China pilot to expect late landing clearance due to the short distance between them and the BA flight ahead of them. Just as the A340 was crossing the A30 road, about 20 seconds from landing, ATC decided that the gap was just too tight, as the BA flight had only just touched down, making the comment 'okay this just isn't going to work!' In an extremely quick instruction, he told the helicopter to 'get out of there' and hold 2 miles south of the airport, then immediately told the A340 to go around - he had to get the helicopter to move first as the climbing A340 would have been far too close to it. What amazed me though was how they managed to co-ordinate this so well, and still seemed just as calm as ever - but I guess that's LHR ATC for you  Smile

When the Air China jet came back around about 15 minutes later he apologied to them and thanked them for their help, but they didn't seem too amused at all...!

star_world


User currently offlineANA777master From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2435 times:

Weird, wild stuff... Those damned helicopters! Like bicycles being ridden on the M1.

User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2432 times:

ANA777...if the plane flew over the 737 then landed, thats when there would've been a shocking error that would probably result in fines being paid and licenses being pulled.

User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 20, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2428 times:

I have an old picture somewhere at my folks place of a 737 lined up for takeoff with another one about 20 feet above it that is coming in for landing at LBA on runway 14, the 737 that was landing still continued and landed too !!. I thought it was pretty cool at the time, and must have been normal procedure but I guess it wasn't.This was about 10-15 years ago so don't know if the rules were differant back then.

One of the airlines if I remember was Air Europa can't remember the other but it was a charter airline.

Also a few years ago I was due to fly out of MAN on Air 2000 to Corfu, but at the last minute we decided to fly on Monarch instead as it went earlier. The next day in the paper we saw that the Air 2000 flight we were due to fly on was involved in an incident at MAN when it was taking off and still on the runway, a Delta L10-11 touched down right behind it.

Never been on an a/c that has gone around yet but I'd love to do it - especially on Concorde. Saw it on an episode of Airport once when Concorde had to go around due to an Egyptair a/c rolling out for too long before vacating. Bet that was a real kick up the backside for the pax when that happened !!.

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineAA61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2397 times:

I have been spotting at DFW for 5 years now. On average I go like 3 times a month. (when I was younger I went more like 1x a week every week) But I have only seen 2 go arounds. 1 DL L1011. and Last time I was at DFW I saw an AA MD80 do a go around. Pretty cool stuff.

I have seen like 6 go arounds at EWR, the 6 times I have been there.



Go big or go home
User currently offlineFredT From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 2185 posts, RR: 26
Reply 22, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2379 times:

Got my curiousity going. It does appear to be legal in the US.  Smile From the FAA 7110.65N "bible" of ATC operations:

"3-10-6. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION
Landing clearance to succeeding aircraft in a landing sequence need not be withheld if you observe the positions of the aircraft and determine that prescribed runway separation will exist when the aircraft cross the landing threshold. Issue traffic information to the succeeding aircraft if not previously reported and appropriate traffic holding in position or departing prior to their arrival."

Cheers,
Fred




I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
User currently offlinePositive rate From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 2143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2349 times:

I have an old picture somewhere at my folks place of a 737 lined up for takeoff with another one about 20 feet above it that is coming in for landing at LBA on runway 14, the 737 that was landing still continued and landed too !!. I thought it was pretty cool at the time, and must have been normal procedure but I guess it wasn't.This was about 10-15 years ago so don't know if the rules were differant back then.

Just imagine if that 737 that was taking off had to abort takeoff for whatever reason. At that height(20 feet) a go-around would have been impossible and there would have been a major accident. The tower was obviously banking on that 737 taking off.



User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 24, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2240 times:

OK guys - let's get back to the basics here, before everyone goes on a long list of "oh, I have seen this" or "oh, I heard that on my scanner"...
xxx


With all due respect skipper...while I am not a pilot, I have listened to my scanner for about 27 years. In that time, I have become very familiar with the terminology that is used between aircraft and the tower. This was the first time in 27 years that I heard the tower repeat a takeoff clearance with the warning that the approaching aircraft was gaining rapidly. I have heard a situation where the tower cleared an airliner on to the runway and immediately had him exit the runway as landing traffic was a bit closer than first thought. My guess is that the tower, recognizing that a go around costs money, and the airline industry is in such dire financial straits that he was hesitant to order the Delta pilot to go around, which, IMHO in the past he most likely would have done by the time he questioned the Frontier jet for a second time. That's just a theory, but I know what I heard. Consider it embellished if you wish.

FredT - it is not uncommon at all in the states to have an aircraft on the runway cleared for takeoff with one or more aircraft on approach that have been cleared to land. Ordinarily it's a non-issue, as the separation is still several miles.


25 Yikes! : B747Skipper is correct in all aspects of his post. An aircraft is capable of going around from anypoint of its landing approach including after touchi
26 TT737FO : Yikes had some points that are suitable for discussion. >>"An aircraft is capable of going around from anypoint of its landing approach including afte
27 Positive rate : The collision that Yikes speaks of occured at LAX in 1990. At night, there was the case of a Skywest Metro departing from an intersection--one that th
28 Yikes! : Hiya TT737FO >>"An aircraft is capable of going around from anypoint of its landing approach including after touching down." I am not sure that I woul
29 Bigphilnyc : Once at LGA, they were usign Runway 13 for ladning and departure. An AirTran 717 was departing, and a Delta 767 was approaching from behind it. I expe
30 Jetguy : A good friend of mine, a passenger on the Skywest Metro, was killed in the collision that Yikes mentioned. ATC is subject to the same mistakes that we
31 B747skipper : Be aware that in the airline "training environment" - we sometimes fly approaches for full stop landings, for touch and goes or for go-around practice
32 Yikes! : I hope that was the last funeral you had to attend Jetguy. My last one was in 1991. I remain hopeful it will be the last loss of a friend in this busi
33 Post contains links TT737FO : I found this relatively obscure accident (well known in the southern Cal community) that captures the essence of everything Yikes, Jetguy, and Skipper
34 Cancidas : Go-arounds are fairly common at airports that have flight training. I've had my fair share when trying to land and there is another plane on the runwa
35 Lu : I know it is so common. You are not a good pilot without go-around-ready when approaching. SO many pilots will put their hands on the thrust when appr
36 ANA777master : Any of you guys ever see two pilots in a fist fight?
37 Shaun3000 : I did two go-arounds, just today. One because a strong gust of wind caught my wing and nearly flipped me over. Rather than try to recover from that wi
38 Post contains images Cancidas : Why the fist fight question? I'm a pilot and I've been in a few fist fights though, not with other pilots however. We usually have a lot of respect fo
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