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Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence  
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4490 posts, RR: 21
Posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2831 times:

I was shocked to learn that a CFI I know from home was fired from his flight school last week for not allowing a Student Pilot to fly a cross country Special VFR (and there was a very wide region of the conditions). I don't know many self-respecting CFI's that would let a pre-private student do this, solo, under ANY circumstance. There's no excuse at all. None.

The flight school has a history of accidents (none fatal, yet, thankfully) -- engine fires, engine failure on takeoff due to selecting an empty tank, and--here's the shocker--a CFIT by a pre-private student flying a cross country under special VFR.

I can't for the life of me figure out why the FAA/NTSB hasn't conducted an investigation into any of the above incidents (except for the CFIT example). If the flight instructor were to sue, would he have any case whatsoever?


I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2800 times:

Remember, there could be more to it than that. But based solely on the information you provided, that's a pretty sorry reason for firing a CFI. The CFI's legal remedies would likely depend on the state. For example, I believe in Texas an employer can basically fire an employee for any reason whatsoever, or for no reason at all (except for race, religion, gender, vetern status, etc.)

The FAA should certainly investigate. Has anyone spoken w/ the FSDO?



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4490 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2772 times:

Jhooper: True, definitely...it all depends on the information.

I'm not sure if anyone has spoken with the local FSDO but I do know (again...rumor and speculation) that pilots in that area are a little intimidated by the owner. The owner in question is rumored to be very "buddy-buddy" with the FSDO guys and no one will speak up in fear of getting "buried"...I can't blame them for that...



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineSccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5519 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2701 times:

SVFR requires IFR rating. No student could do this legally.

Are you sure you're not thinking of marginal VFR?



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineFlyingbronco05 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3840 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2699 times:

I think im missing something:

I was shocked to learn that a CFI I know from home was fired from his flight school last week for not allowing a Student Pilot to fly a cross country Special VFR (and there was a very wide region of the conditions). I don't know many self-respecting CFI's that would let a pre-private student do this, solo, under ANY circumstance. There's no excuse at all. None.

So the CFI let a pre private pilot solo or he did not let him. I dont follow.

FB05



Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
User currently offlineTT737FO From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 472 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

>>>"SVFR requires IFR rating. No student could do this legally."

---YES and NO. An IFR clearance is required for Special-V ONLY AT NIGHT! During daylight hours, a private pilot may request (and receive) a Special-V clearance.

--It is absolutely true, however, that a student pilot is unauthorized to operate under Special-V.


User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2661 times:

SVFR at night requires an IFR rated and current pilot and an IFR equipped aircraft. It does NOT require an IFR clearance.


09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2660 times:

Correct, A Special VFR clearance is not an IFR clearance! I do believe, however, that SVFR provides IFR separation.


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineTT737FO From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 472 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2649 times:

My bad, I meant to say IFR rated pilots ONLY can receive SV clearance

User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2645 times:

Yeah, SVFR is provided with seperation from SVFR and IFR traffic, however, an SVFR clearance request will not be granted if it will delay IFR operations in the area.


09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineCanadianPilot From Canada, joined Mar 2003, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2522 times:

SVFR in Canada is exactly that.... Special VFR!!
If you had an IFR rating, wouldnt it be a little silly to get SVFR when you could just file IFR??


-Chris


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2518 times:

Gettin an IFR clearance kind of defeats the purpose of going Special VFR doesn't it?




OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2515 times:

to fly a cross country Special VFR

Unless you've got a quite interesting route of flight, you can't actually fly a cross country route entirely under Special VFR.

 Smile

Steve


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2513 times:

I have heard of it being done. ;-D

But the distances in the Aleutian Islands are vast, and the weather sucks!



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2514 times:

Yes it does, I would say!


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2479 times:

I should add that the usual reason for an SVFR clearance was not because of vis, but because of low ceilings. You have so much more room to manuver when you just have to be clear of clouds.

That and since you where generally following beach, there wasn't too much chance of hitting a mountain when you were over the water.

Of course the guys doing this have been flying the same routes since Otto was flying gliders, so they knew where to go an where not to go.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2429 times:

SVFR is not only for IFR pilots. Any pilot in any airplane can request and recieve a SVFR clearance, provided the facility that he requests offers SVFR.


"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2421 times:

Cancidas, see above replys for why your statement is incorrect.


09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineMinuteman From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2246 times:

FAR 91.157 says, "special VFR operations may be conducted ... within the airspace contained by the upward extension of the lateral boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport"

Never tried it, but my understanding was that if you could contact ATC, you could receive SVFR (anywhere, including the non-towered airport 40 miles away from the Class C TRACON). This excerpt makes it sound like it is permitted only within the boundaries established for an airport with controlled airspace at the surface. What's your take?


User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2242 times:

As the FARs state, SVFR is only permitted inside the confines of the controlled surface area of an airport.

The explaination is fairly straightforward. If an airport does not have controlled airspace to the surface, then the airpace at the surface (and up to the overlying controlled airspace) is class G, uncontrolled. The VFR cloud/vis requirements in day, below 10000 feet, in class G is one mile and clear of clouds. The same as SVFR requirements. Therefore, there is no need for SVFR in uncontrolled airspace.

Another reason is that ATC provides seperation for SVFR-cleared aircraft, and ATC does not provide services in uncontrolled airspace (hence the term "uncontrolled"). This is also why you don't need to file a flight plan or have a clearance to operate under IFR in class G.

 Big thumbs up



09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4490 posts, RR: 21
Reply 20, posted (11 years 2 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2137 times:

I didn't even think of 91.157....that's what I get for going "through the grapevine"....

The "revised" story is that the student wanted to do pattern work under Special VFR (hence remaining within the confines of the airport's Class D airspace). The instructor refused.

I would have done the same thing with my student. I would never let a private student depart under Special VFR especially by himself. If the visibility is already low, you could run into an almost-invisible piece of scud real quick....

Actually, wouldn't sending a pre-private student violate the solo endorsements given by the instructor? If you give a student pilot a solo endorsement "subject to the following conditions: Day VFR", he's not legal in anything but Day VFR conditions. Special VFR conditions are by definition NOT VFR conditions, so there's another catch.

Sorry for the stir-up  Smile/happy/getting dizzy



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
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