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Power-On Stall  
User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3370 times:

Clue me in on this, my friends make a bigger deal out of it than i do, what's the point of it? Certainly being in this situation would worsen if the engines suddenly stopped...


The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineOlympic A-340 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 780 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3332 times:

Well let's assume that you have just rotated from the runway, and you hear somethign along the lines of, "Cessna 1234 watch for Duchess traffic, she'll be crossing from your left side." You keep an eye out for that traffic and as you reach around 300 feet you hear a stall horn. In your efforts to avoid a collision hazard, you neglected your ASI from your nominal instrument scan. Now your are just knots away from stalling your plane with an altitude of only around 300-400 feet. Now its a big deal isn't?

User currently offlineOlympic A-340 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 780 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3324 times:

Argh...my post got cut out for some reason...
The point in practicing power off stalls is to make sure the student can recognize the control feelings/sounds of an impending POWER-ON stall, so that if he or she should ever let their instrument scan neglect the ASI, they will recognize the impending hazardous situation, and rectify it as soon as possible. Additionally, power-on stalls provide a flow for a QUICK and rapid response should the lack of airspeed or increasing angle of attack develop into a full blown stall.


User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3268 times:

olympic a-340, exactly. they're tricky in small planes like the c152, which will spin easily if not ovoided. a c172 on the other hand, well i have had hard time getting it to spin.


"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3252 times:

152s do not spin easily. It's quite apparent that they don't want to be there. Not the best plane to do spin training in, because often if you just let go of the controls, they'll pop right out of the spin. One of the 150s I was spinning in stopped even with PRO spin controls still in.

 Big thumbs up



09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineFly727 From Mexico, joined Jul 2003, 1789 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3232 times:

Great explanation by Olympic A-340.

The reason why to practice a lot of power-on stalls is, as said above, to be able to recognize the handling characteristics of the airplane and the recovery with minimum altitude loss on such situation. The power-on emulates an over-rotation or excessive angle of attack during take off. Remember that you are defying the laws of gravity, that your airplane is flying slow, really close to the ground and with such great power that the nasty left-turning tendencies are at their most. A properly developed recovery technique will make the airplane maintain directional control, reduce the excessive angle of attack and gain airspeed (and thus lift).

On the other hand, the power-off will get you familiar with the characteristics of a stall while on landing configuration. The outcome of a well performed maneuver will maintain direction, reduce de AOA and gain numbers in the AI.

Two out of many things which do you no good in aviation:

- Altitude above you.
- The airspeed you don't have.

Keep the blue side up !  Big thumbs up
RM



There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3218 times:

Defying the laws of gravity? You might want to read up on your aerodynamics.  Big thumbs up


09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlinePositive rate From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 2143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

Olympic A-340 that example you gave above was excellent. An accident due to that exact cause happened here in Australia a few years back. Someone had departed on a hot summers day in a light single and passing 200-300 feet the tower alerted him of crossing traffic. He looked outside and neglected to check the IAS and the plane stalled, spun and crashed with the loss of all on board. Sad.

User currently offlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1643 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3186 times:

Ralgha has it right; the C152 will fly right out of a spin quickly if not held in it. The beauty of spinning the C152, from an instructional point of view, is that every step of spin development seems to happen distinctly and almost in slow motion.

User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3165 times:

This is an excellent thread. If I were king of the world, I would require spin training (student demonstrated enteries and recoveries in both directions). I feel that it's a shame that the FAA no longer requires this.

Once upon a time, it was a requirement for student pilots to have spin training. Way back then, stall/spins were the leading cause of "early death" in the pilot community. The FAA recognised that, in most cases, if an aircraft is capable of stalling it is also capable of spinning ergo, they required spin training. Later on the enlightened FAA decided that if they just ignored the problem it would go away. Hence the requirement for spin training was removed. Results - stall/spins continued to be the #1 cause of "early death" in the pilot community. The FAA then decided that perhaps they had over done it and reinstated the requirement for spin training - for CFI applicants only. Results - stall/spins remain the #1 cause of "early death" in the pilot community. Personally, I feel that if an airplane is capable of spinning, then the student had dang well better be trained and proficient in spin entries and "textbook" recoveries (both directions) - regardless of what the FAA requires. (And not in an airplane that only requires you to relax pressure on the controls to recover. Believe me, there are many popular airplanes out there that require "aggressive" spin recovery techniques.)

Better to have the student's first spin experience with a CFI at his side than hanging from the straps at pattern altitude, watching the world starting to spin around him with his wife sitting beside him and wondering what the hell just happened. Just my humble opinion.

Jetguy


User currently offlineBuckfifty From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1316 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3135 times:

I suppose the amount of accidents caused by spin training has outweighed the value of the number of instances where it actually saved lives. At least that is what I've been told anyway.

However, I still support spin training, for all the reasons quoted above. Though if you're going to do it, make sure the a/c you're flying in is in good shape (and rated for spin training), not to mention loaded correctly.

Aft c/g, bad...


User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3112 times:

I don't think that spin training is to help someone save themselves if they get into one as much as teaching them exactly what it's like and how it occurs, making it easier for them to recognize situations in which a spin could occur, and recognizing the importance of avoiding unintentional spins. In my opinion, if you can do a spin, then you have a better understanding of a spin, and that helps avoid them.

Most unintentional spins happen on the base to final turn. The airplane is low enough at that point, that the chances of recovering from an unexpected spin are slim, even with proper training. Of course there are exceptions, some airplanes can recover with little altitude loss, but that is the general rule.

Spin training is intended to teach pilots the importance of avoiding spins like this, not so much to be able to recover, since it often isn't possible anyway. So yeah, you're not going to see many cases where spin training saved someone's bacon when they inadvertently got into a spin on base to final.

Many of those crashes during spin training are a direct result of the stupidity of the instructor/pilot involved. Such as the instructor in southern California who liked to do his spin training at night over the ocean. He crashed.



09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3082 times:

Ralgha...
You are correct when you say that it's not the training per se, but the knowledge of what's involved that has the potential to save lives. After all, as you say, most stall/spin accidents do occur at low altitude while the aircraft is making the base-to-final turn. However, I think you're missing my point to some degree. In my personal opinion, proper training demands more than simply a thorough explanation of the aerodynamics involved. While absolutely necessary, this explanation must also be accompanied by appropriate demonstrations by both the instructor and student. In my case, I set up the spin entry demo with the basic "base-to-final" scenario.

The problem with the current FAA approach is that it isn't working. Stall/Spins are still a contributing factor in a large percentage of aviation deaths. You can have a extensive "book" understanding of the factors involved, but the actual experience is so disorienting to one who has never experienced it before as to make verbal explanations virtually meaningless. Like I said, it would be much better to have the student's first spin experience with a CFI at his side than hanging from the straps at pattern altitude, watching the world starting to spin around him with his wife sitting beside him and wondering what the hell just happened.

It's basically a new twist on the old concept of "See and Avoid". After all, I don't care how proficient you are with spin entries, if you allow yourself to get into one at pattern altitude or less, you're most likely going to die! The actual spin demonstrations simply put the exclamation point at the end of the sentence.

Jetguy


User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3045 times:

I totally agree that spin training should include actually spinning an airplane. I just think that a lot of people view it as learning how to save yourself from an unintentional spin rather than learning how and why to avoid them altogether.


09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlinePilothighflyer From United States of America, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 220 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2967 times:

I have over 60 hours in a 1981 Cessna 152 and completely agree with Ralgha. The 152 will spin, but it takes effort or lack of skill to do so. Example being, a friend of mine on his first of three check out rides while getting his ppl spun a 152 from 4500 to 1500 while performing a power on stall.
However the 152 will not break a inverted or flat spin with out opposite rudder and dipping the nose to build airspeed. It may be nearly imposable to break a fully developed flat spin in a 152, but entering a flat spin in a 152 can only happen if loading and the center of gravity are messed up.
~Robert


User currently offlineTT737FO From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 472 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2943 times:

>>>"Clue me in on this, my friends make a bigger deal out of it than i do, what's the point of it? Certainly being in this situation would worsen if the engines suddenly stopped..."

Here's a scenario:

You are new 135 pilot flying a piston commander fully loaded out of MKC to some bum-phuck Kansas airport on a dark snowy night. You have filed with a take-off alternate and are in one hell of a hurry to get out of dodge. Wheels in the well, you are right into the soup and downright rusty on your instrument skills. Bam! Vertigo sets in and you have no idea whether you're climbing or descending.

I'll clue you in on this...all it takes is continued flight into IMC conditions (especially in a climbing attitude) and then....GONE IN 60 SECONDS (or less).


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