Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?  
User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7438 posts, RR: 62
Posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4699 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

We are considering going from

JFK or LGA to HNL in business or first class

We'd like to stick to Continental, American, BA or one of their partners.

But why does it seem that just about ALL of the flights in/out of HNL are with 767's?? Either that or on DC-10s??

Just wondering what is with all those 767s, thats all.

thanks.


Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4627 times:

that plane fills the niche perfectly.


"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlineFlyingbronco05 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3840 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4609 times:

Boeing planes only in this explanation:

757's lack range and capacity from most cities.

777's have the range but have too many seats.

767 has the range from most cities if not all in the US and the seats are usually filled or very few empty.



Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3596 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4599 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Less than 10 years ago HNL mainland flights used to be dominated by DC-10's and as they were retired from airline fleets, they replaced those flights with 767's and 757's. The 767 and 757 are also more efficient and allowed airlines to serve the neighbor islands and more mainland destinations.

User currently offlineDodgeCharger From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4579 times:

In the old days you could hop a ride to HNL from DAL in a Fat Albert 747. But that was the old days.

User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6199 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4587 times:

Flyingbronco05,

I believe the 757 does actually fly to HNL w/ at least one airline. (753?)

One explanation why we see the 767 rather than the 777 going to HNL is that airlines generally configure the 777 with premium seating for international ops. Since HNL is a tourist destination and doesn't generate much profit, there's little point in offering premium seating. By the way, I don't know about other airlines, but the 767-400 at Delta has more seats than their 777s (due to business class seats).



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2530 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4588 times:

As we were told when Hawaiian bought our new 763's, that plane has the lowest seat/mile cost of any widebody plane out there. When you're flying to a low yield leisure destination like Hawaii, every penny counts. That's why you use the most efficient plane for the trip.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6199 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4591 times:

If that's the case (it's entirely plausible), HAL , then why isn't the 763 operated on all routes that it has the range to serve? For example, why operate the 777 on destinations such as ATL-LGW when the 763 is cheaper?


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4559 times:

For example, why operate the 777 on destinations such as ATL-LGW when the 763 is cheaper?
***************

It is only cheaper if it matches with your demand, but if it doesn't meet your demand, then it isnt cheaper. Delta obviously feels that they can fill the 777 to LGW, and they also get good cargo revenue from the 777 that they do NOT get from the 763.

Basically what the original poster was saying is that if you calculate, the fuel needed, and the per seat costs of the 763, it is cheaper to run than the 777 and they are correct. This however is only relevent in those circumstances


User currently offlineFlyingbronco05 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3840 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4555 times:

I believe the 757 does actually fly to HNL w/ at least one airline. (753?)

I meant that airlines that operate the 57, 67, and 77 GENERALLY use the 67 to hawaii for reasons stated above. I know that 57's go in and out of HNL. (ata)

 Smile

FB05



Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 10, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4505 times:

Both American and United operate 757s to HNL as well.

The argument on the 767 for everything is that if you can fill one 777, that's cheaper per seat mile than two 763s with the same number of passengers.

Its always cyclical... more frequencies with smaller planes is better for customers, but fewer frequencies with larger planes is better on the bottom line. When things are good, we do a. When things are bad, we do b.

N


User currently offlineUSAFHummer From United States of America, joined May 2000, 10685 posts, RR: 53
Reply 11, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4467 times:

Mirrodie - BA doesnt fly to HNL...

Greg



Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
User currently offlineCitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2368 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4434 times:

UA 757s go to Hawaii (OGG) I believe.
Aloha 737s go mainland to Hawaii also.

[Edited 2003-08-06 23:22:27]


Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2530 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4444 times:

Let me clear up a few items;

The 763 has the lowest seat/mile cost. Period. However if you are able to fill a 777, then even though each seat costs more to fly, overall you get more profit because even though there is less profit per seat, you have more seats therefore more total profit per flight. And flying one 777 costs less than two 763's.

An airline can purchase the 763 for lowest seat/mile cost, but if you're only flying 100 passengers in a 250 passenger plane, you lose money. However if you put those 100 people in a 737NG, you make a profit despite each seat costing the airline a little more than a 763 seat would. That's why Aloha flies the 737-700 to smaller markets, and makes money on it.

As said above, it's all about what you can fill, and what you can pay for.

Also, North American Airlines flies 757's into HNL (and OGG) for a number of charter vacation companies.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineAloha73g From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2335 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4387 times:

American, United and ATA fly scheduled 757 flights to Hawaii.

American 757-200s fly LAX-LIH/KOA/OGG and SJC-HNL/OGG and seasonal downgrades from 763 for flights from SFO/LAX-HNL

United 757-200s fly LAX/SFO-LIH/OGG/KOA and seasonal downgrades from 763 for flights from SFO/LAX-HNL

ATA 757-300s fly LAX/SFO-HNL/OGG & 757-200s fly PHX-HNL/OGG

Other airlines and the aircraft they operate on Hawaii flights:
Aloha: 737-700
American: 767-300
Continental: 767-400, 777-200
Delta: 767-400 (and a -300ER until Sep 1 for ATL flights)
Hawaiian: 767-300
Northwest: DC-10, 747-200/400
United:767-300, 777-200 and an occasional 747-400



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7438 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4284 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Greg, I know! Sorry to confuse you, I mean a BA partner, get it?


THanks for the info. Mirrodie



Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 7934 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4222 times:

"The 763 has the lowest seat/mile cost. Period." This is nonsense. There is no way it can compete with the 777 on a fourteen hour flight (say, Continental's EWR-HKG service), a 767 would probably be able to carry 100 passengers and no cargo to be able to make the trip. So no way does it have the lowest seat/mile cost, "period". Would Koreanair make any money flying a 763ER on the Seoul-Zurich route, on which they currently fly the A330? Having to stop for fuel (and not carry LD3s to augment pax revenue) en route where the 777 and A330 can go nonstop does not the lowest seat/mile cost make. The 767 may be the most efficient in certain missions (ie medium haul leisure flights) but that's it.


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2530 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4175 times:

1) Figure the range of the 767-300

2) Figure the cost of running any plane for that distance

3) Divide that cost by the number of seats in the plane

4) The lowest number comes out for the (ta-da!!) 767-300.

Of course the 777 would be better for a fourteen hour flight, because the 767-300 can't do that nonstop!!!  Nuts

If you have to stop to fill up with fuel, of course it costs more. That's why you find only 747's flying from the US to Australia. It costs less that way than stopping a 767 in Hawaii for gas.

But for any flight under about 6000 miles, for each seat, the 767-300 is cheapest.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 18, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4129 times:

For each seat with a certain load is my guess.

If I have 300 passengers to transport, its clearly more efficient and cost-aware to operate 1 777 on the route with all 300 vs. 2 767s with 150 each.

N


User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3596 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4132 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

A good example of the 767's economics is the amount of destinations served in the trans-Atlantic market by the 767. Without the 767, many current European destinations would not be served non-stop to the US. In fact, the 767 still flies the most flights across the Atlantic.

User currently offlineBuckfifty From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1316 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4092 times:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767family/pdf/econ.pdf

However, lowest seat/mile does not equate to lowest operating costs. Lowest seat mile usually changes by operator anyway, as more seats you can stuff into the a/c, the lower seat/mile costs would be. Yet it could still be cheaper flying a 757 to the same destination, depending on the load factor.


User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2530 posts, RR: 53
Reply 21, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4073 times:

Yet it could still be cheaper flying a 757 to the same destination, depending on the load factor.

One more time, let me explain that seat/mile cost has nothing to do with load factor. It is "X" number of seats going "Y" miles costing "Z" dollars. It has nothing to do with how many fannys occupy those seats. If you only have one passenger to fly, the seat/mile cost stays the same (approximately) as if you had 250. The difference in revenue is the difference between a profit and a loss. It's up the the airline managers to put the appropriate plane on each route, depending on the expected load.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineBuckfifty From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1316 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4082 times:

Ah...what are you talking about Willis?

Tell me something again. Does a 767 have lower operating costs than a 757?

Okay then. Now that you read my post again, did I actually say that the 757 was cheaper to fly to HNL because it had lower seat/mile costs?

Even as you said, it's up to the airline managers to put the appropraite plane on each route, depending on the expected load...

I didn't post that link up there to prove that you were wrong. I actually agreed with everything you said.

Nevermind.


User currently offlineAA61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 23, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4064 times:

Mirrodie-Go for the DC10, there aren't too many of those left.. I took an L1011 to HNL/OGG, so nice!

JHooper-Post a link to your movie!  Wink/being sarcastic



Go big or go home
User currently offlineTbear815 From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 704 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4048 times:

At one time, UA flew 3 747's SFO/HNL daily. It was their prestige service in those days, so P/L wasn't so important. That was then, this is now. Economics is a reality we have to live with if the airlines want to survive. Ah, de-regulation; "wonderful" way to go!

25 Mirrodie : I will see if I can take a DC-10. would be nice. last time I was in a dc-10, it was a nonstopper from JFK-HNL on a Continental DC-10 about 16 years ag
26 Post contains links Jhooper : Ok; here's my movie. You asked for it! http://airside.paradise.net.nz/video/deltal1011honoluluto.wmv
27 Post contains images Buckfifty : A-ha! Is that a working scanner I see on your lap, Mr. Hooper? (Tsk tsk.)
28 LMP737 : How things can change is a short amount of time. In 2000 I flew into HNL for vacation on the north shore. At HNL most of the planes were DC-10's, L-10
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Why Does The Tower Give Out Altimetric Reading posted Fri Nov 10 2006 02:58:14 by YULspotter
Why Does The Front-wheel Door Not Close On MD-11? posted Fri Apr 21 2006 00:14:33 by Aero145
Why Does The Captain Sit On The Left? posted Fri Mar 18 2005 19:31:16 by JAM747
How Long Does The FAA Keep Records Of Arrivals? posted Tue Nov 7 2006 16:34:55 by Lenbrazil
What Naca Airfoil Type Does The 747-400 Use? posted Thu Oct 12 2006 15:06:04 by Flybyguy
Why Are The TF-39 On C-5 Galaxy So Loud? posted Tue Aug 1 2006 18:02:08 by 747400sp
Why Should The Fuselage Taper At The End? posted Thu Jul 27 2006 19:28:05 by Gopal
How Much Fuel Does The AN-225 Hold? posted Sat Jul 22 2006 20:31:45 by KDTWFlyer
ATR 42/72 - Why Is The Cargo Bin In Front? posted Sun Jul 9 2006 06:35:24 by N353SK
Why Was The JT9D-70A So Rare On 747's posted Fri Jun 2 2006 23:45:50 by 747400sp

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format