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For The Pilots: Airports You'd Rather Not Fly To  
User currently offlineJohn From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 1374 posts, RR: 5
Posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12213 times:

Are there any airports that typically can annoy the crap out of you? Whether it's the way they handle the air traffic, ramp congestion, challenging approaches, ridiculous noise abatement procedures, runway conditions/taxiway layout...etc. Tell us what airports you'd rather avoid if you had the choice. Spill your guts!

63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 12101 times:

Eugene, 'cause UO is nearby.  Big thumbs up


09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 12107 times:

Aspen, Colorado (KASE) isn't my favorite place to fly in and out of. I've been the many times and I've never got to the point (thank goodness) where I can relax.

Jetguy


User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12067 times:

KFRG. i fly from there all the time. it's a heavy training airport and a lot of the pilots learning to fly there don't know what they're doing.

then again, KHWV is just as bad. some pilots tend to think that no tower means hey can do whatever. like announcing that they are on 45 for a left base to rwy 33 when they want to land 6.  Confused



"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlineSkyguy11 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 12065 times:

Chino, CA. Nothing particularly hard about it... just every time I go there something goes wrong; bad vibes, man

User currently offlineJohn From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 1374 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 12023 times:

Wanna read some more stories, keep 'em coming!  Smile

User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1618 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 12010 times:

It is hard to think of a "worst" but sometimes the ATC in Zürich is very arrogant. Additionally, there are problems regarding departures and arrivals in ZRH at certain times which create huge delays for no good reason. Why ZRH has just 2 ILS approaches and just 3 total approaches is beyond me. ZRH can be a real pain in the A$$. But it can also be not too bad.

Some of the nicer airports are:

CDG (Charles de Gaulle, Paris) - works well despite its huge size.

THF (Berlin, Tempelhof) - Classic feel, right in the middle of the city. Time machine atmosphere. You feel as if you should see some DC-4s and 3s on approach and rolling around. Cool Airport.

FLR (Florence, Italy) - Beautiful approach.

BRN (Bern, Switzerland) - Friendly ATC, nice small atmosphere

MAD (Madrid, Spain) - Giant airport. One of the last places in Europe to see "Classic" airliners like 727s and DC-8s in action.

LCY (London City) - Approach to 10 right over downtown London. Steep approach. London ATC is VERY busy, but works smoothly.

But the best is LUG (Lugano, Switzerland) - 6.65° IGS, spectacular mountains all around, special certification required, spectacular visual approaches. This has been my home base for 2 years. As a pilot you will learn more there in 1 week than a year of flying 3° ILS approaches in the rest of Europe.

If I think of more I will post them.



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8025 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 12004 times:

I think ZRH's ATC can cause no end of problems. Remember that LX Avro RJ crash back in 2001? I believe that was caused by ZRH closing certain runways due to noise abatement reasons and the approach the Avro RJ did to another runway at ZRH resulted in a controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) crash near the airport.

User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6625 posts, RR: 55
Reply 8, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11938 times:

On our network, most of our pilots don't particularly like Bombay. We go in and out of there in the middle of the night at the worst time for our body clocks as well, which just doesn't help, but ATC is pretty bad in terms of English and skills.

There are dogs and people all over the runways and taxiways, and the airport is fairly dimly lit, especially the crossing runway, which is not even lit up as a runway, meaning you can taxi down it by accident when you are not supposed to.

They also try to give you your departure clearance when taxying at the wrong times, like my last trip when we were taxying down the short runway to join the parallel taxiway for Runway 27. ATC asked us if we could copy clearance just before reaching the taxiway. Had we copied, and missed the turning, we would be straight onto the active runway. At that moment, an MD11 rushed past on takeoff, just to remind us of the potential threat.



User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6625 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11931 times:

After doing all that, they tell you to line up. Once lined up, they often give you a revised clearance to climb to a certain altitude, turn right, intercept a certain radial inbound to the VOR, then depart on a different radial....and also cleared immediate takeoff, traffic at 4 miles!!

I tell you, it's a disaster waiting to happen....oh, and there's a hill just off to the left of the ILS on finals as you are descending onto a fairly short slippery runway where there is often very bad thunderstorms.


User currently offlineJohn From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 1374 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 11875 times:

Geesh, not that I have any reason to travel to Bombay....but I think I'll PASS!! Pretty scary!

User currently offlineM717 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 608 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 11843 times:

I'll pick a couple...

SNA, because of the ridiculous and (IMO) totally unnecessary noise abatement procedure required there.

and BUR, just because of the tight conditions on the ground, the always marginal VFR (at best) conditions that are prevalent, and because it is "VFR" all the time, a huge amount of VFR traffic at both Burbank and Van Nuys, as well as that which is transitioning the area. Although this last point could be true for any SoCal airport.


User currently offlineJohn From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 1374 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11793 times:

I'll tell ya what, I'm not a pilot, but I always thought they went a little overboard at SNA. Aren't they essentially dictating to the pilots, "This is how you WILL fly your airplane"!? Plus that runway is way too fucking short, leaving little or NO margin for the slightest error....Do you find it almost like operating from an aircraft carrier there?

User currently offlineM717 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 608 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11772 times:

John,

Absolutely they are saying "this is how you WILL fly your airplane". The short runway is not that big of a deal, at least to me. True it leaves little margin for error, but you just have to make good choices and operate the aircraft by the numbers...which is what you should be doing anyway... anywhere, anytime. So, as long as the data says your are ok, the short runway isn't really a problem.

Now, doing this absurd maneuver and reducing the power to an abnormally low setting until you are 6 miles offshore, just so the people can live around the airport and not be bothered by airport noise...give me a break. Also, more often than not, the last thing the tower controller says before he says "cleared for takeoff" is "numerous targets between you and the shoreline". Just what you want to hear as you are about to rotate to a 20+degree nose up attitude where you couldn't see the traffic, no matter what. Oh wait, I guess you could see it once you reduce the power to 60% while simultaneously turning left and lowering the nose to around 10 degrees, so you are just maintaining altitude, After all, if you were climbing then you'd have too much power set, and therefore would be making too much noise. Better wait until you are 6 miles offshore to apply that climb power. Then no one will hear you.  Insane

Yep, SNA is one place I'm glad I don't go to anymore, and hope I never do again.


User currently offlineScarletHarlot From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 4673 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11751 times:

I flew one trip to and from SNA, on Alaska, and was glad that the pilot warned us of the noise abatement procedure before takeoff...otherwise I would have been somewhat alarmed!

Are there any other airports that have (in your opinion) unnecessarily strict noise abatement procedures?

This is a great thread!



But that was when I ruled the world
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8025 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11747 times:

One of my major concerns regarding SNA is what happens if an airliner experiences an engine failure during that initial steep climbout from the airport. I worry the airplane could end up in a dangerous low-altitude stall condition and there may not enough time to recover from the stall before the plane hits the ground.  Sad

The BAe 146/Avro RJ85 could handle this steep climbout quite a bit more gracefully, since they are designed as STOL aircraft with more wing lift capability. This means in case of engine problems during the climbout the BAe 146/RJ85 could recover quicker from a potential stall, allowing the plane to fly safely on reduced engine power to make a safe emergency landing.


User currently offlineBa299 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2003, 173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 11741 times:

I really hate:

Barcellona (BCN-LEBL): they don't know what means: "short turn-around". Normally the ramp agent look de disembark of the pax and that he go away and they simply forget about you. I can call on all the frequency in the world but they don't answer.


User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 11720 times:

Ba299,

Sorry but you have it easy.... try getting a fast turnaround in Luxor, while ensuring the ground crew aren't stealing the on-board furnishings....

Have to have eyes in the back of your head on the ground down there! Always a pleasure to actually depart, despite the 5 hour journey home  Big grin



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineSSTjumbo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 11712 times:

You have to be local, but I hate landing at JOT (Joliet Park Dist. Arpt) during the winter time. Simply put, they don't know the meaning of snow plow. Other than that, Clow Int'l. in Bolingbrook, IL, is about the trickiest small aircraft airport to operate at in its region. The whole airport is about as wide as most of the runways at major airports, the runway itself is about as wide as the wheelbase of a Cessna 152, all sides are bustling with suburban shopping centers and what not, and you have to avoid high tension lines north of the runway, and we all know who wins when a 152 goes head-to-head with high tension lines, not the aircraft.


Cheers
-Mike


User currently offlineJohn From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 1374 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 11636 times:

On the subject of SNA again, I get a kick out of all the NIMBY WHINERS from Newport Beach and surrounding areas who chronically complain about the jet noise, yet love the convenience of John Wayne Airport and would have no objection to hopping on a plane there....Kind of hypocritical, isn't it? Can't live with it, can't live without it! A double edged sword, so to speak.

User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11507 times:

Uhhh....

Clow Intl has a 50 foot wide runway. That is not narrow, nor anywhere even remotely close to a 152's wheelbase.



09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineIsmangun From Indonesia, joined Jan 2001, 117 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 11418 times:

Commenting about SNA's noise-abatement:

Aren't many of the houses there were built AFTER the airport was? Is it fair if you move next to, say, a shipyard, and you're annoyed by its noise, then you make a petition to force them move, or at least to lower their noise level?

I think this is a common case for many airports all-around USA.

Well no need to respond to this stupid nonsense, just wanting to circulate the air inside my head. Cheers.



If it's an Airbus, I'll take the bus...
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8731 posts, RR: 42
Reply 22, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11376 times:

There's even a citizens' initiative to close THF (Berlin Tempelhof) - an airport which has existed in its current form for more than sixty years and played a decisive role during the Berlin airbridge! However, THF will probably be closed anyway, due to "economic reasons" - while an airport like LCY is a true gold mine.


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 46
Reply 23, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11384 times:

One of my major concerns regarding SNA is what happens if an airliner experiences an engine failure during that initial steep climbout from the airport.

One flys a standard engine-out profile [noise be damned]. With no tall obstacles anywhere near the departure path it is a very easy thing to do.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineSSTjumbo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 11286 times:

Ralgha, was I insulting?

Anyway, I know it has a fifty foot runway, but everything around it totally throws you if you haven't operated out of there quite a few times. There is a taxiway and hangars right up next to the runway giving you the illusion of landing on an alley strip coupled with I think a mall on one side and houses on the other. Plus, the high tension wires on the north side aren't forgiving to aircraft which fly more than a mile if I remember correctly.


25 Post contains images Ralgha : Of course you weren't insulting, I was just pointing out that it's not narrow.
26 Post contains images SSTjumbo : Well, if there's one thing that we can't argue, it's that Clow's runway is definately wider than the one between your legs . [cue rimshot] sorry, back
27 Post contains images Luxair : Cx flyboy, you make me realy scary (concerning Mumbai AP) I will fly there in november from Amsterdam (on Northwest). I knew that India is not the be
28 Cx flyboy : It's not the best of places to go, but bear in mind that example was the worst of my experiences. There are still dogs and people everywhere and it is
29 Mr.BA : CX flyboy Indeed it is dangerous... can pilots actually point out these dangers to the airport authorities? [Edited 2003-09-02 10:23:11]
30 Cx flyboy : We can file an Air Safety Report (ASR), and see what happens....normally it just vanishes into the mysterious black hole of paperwork.
31 Codeshare : One pilot once told me about Dhaka (DAC) in Bangladesh. 3 aircraft were approaching before 6 a.m. And all 3 were too early i.e. before 6. So they went
32 Post contains images Gordonsmall : 3 aircraft were approaching before 6 a.m. And all 3 were too early i.e. before 6. So they went into holding until 6. Why? 'cause the airport opened at
33 John : Several years back, I was on a flight to LHR from BOS aboard a BA 747-200, that arrived early, at around 5:30a local time. After we landed and pulled
34 N6376m : Guys - Can anyone post a link or a description of the SNA noise abatement procedures? I think that it would make very interesting reading. Thanks. -76
35 Post contains links AAR90 : Can anyone post a link or a description of the SNA noise abatement procedures? I think that it would make very interesting reading. How about: http://
36 TERRA : Dangerous, well i work in SDA, nuff said!!!!!!!!!!!
37 John : Any Alaska pilots on here? Tell us about some of those obscure airports and operating conditions, especially DUT (Dutch Harbor)! That runway is ridicu
38 PW4084 : John, I don't work for Alaska but I've flown into DUT many times. As long as Alaska (in conjunction with Boeing) can show that their performance data
39 Aloges : For operations into DUT, the 732 is probably way more appropriate than a 734 or 73G, with the thrust reversers being the reason for it. On the 732, fu
40 Goboeing : But I thought reverse thrust is not considered when calculating landing or takeoff distance? Nick
41 SSTjumbo : Goboeing, if I remember correctly from one of my professors, if during the flight the reversers fail, the flight must fly to an alternate field. That'
42 Mozart : What about Kai Tak? Did pilots love or loathe it? I guess both... but interested in hearing some stories
43 Post contains links Flyingbronco05 : Can anyone post a link or a description of the SNA noise abatement procedures? I think that it would make very interesting reading. http://www.airnav.
44 M717 : For those interested in operations into DUT, I flew in and out of there when I was a pilot at MarkAir. The aircraft the we operated there was the 732
45 Post contains images Aloges : Is a 732 certified for operations from unpaved runways when it's equipped with the gravel kits? Just because I like plugging other people's photos, he
46 Post contains links and images M717 : Yes, they are certified for operations into gravel or unpaved runways with the gravel kits. Those photos were taken at the Red Dog mine. Been there ma
47 Aloges : Thanks! I remember having seen a 732 of Air Tanzania with a line like "the 737 went where no jet had gone before" beneath it, but couldn't remember if
48 Post contains images SSTjumbo : M717, thanks for clarifying that. Actually I think my old prof now was referring to anti-skid kits or something of that nature in some scenario. I don
49 Post contains images M717 : SSTjumbo, Inoperative anti-skid would most definitely make a difference in the performance numbers. I've been glad for the "curve" myself on occasion,
50 B747skipper : Mumbai (Bombay Airport) always has been a dangerous airport... Crowded area, some people live in shacks next to the runway, Kids play in the blast are
51 Cptkrell : Any airshow at any airport where the Air Boss doesn't have a real handle on what the hell's going on...Jack
52 Post contains images Air1727 : Red Dog is quite a neat place, but there are several airports in Alaska that are 10x more challenging than that, but jets can't go in there Dutch is d
53 Post contains images M717 : Air1727, I used to fly the "DEW Line" along the North Slope...Point Lay, Wainwright, Point Barrow, Lonely, Oliktok, Barter Island...in the Dash-7 The
54 ScarletHarlot : M717, I'd double respect you if I could. My dad was stationed on the DEWLine in the 1960s. He told me some pretty good stories about the flights up th
55 Post contains images M717 : Scarlet, No, I haven't seen it. I'll try and check it out. Thanks a lot. BTW, I was based in SEA for several years also, and miss the Northwest as wel
56 Post contains images Air1727 : Without detail, I was more exposed to the Point Lay and Kivalina shuttle; essential air freight and fuel hauling. Same with Kaktovik and "Aquasuck" Th
57 Post contains images M717 : Air1727, No, I only flew the 737s at MarkAir. Prior to that I flew the Dash 7 at ERA. That's the extent of my Alaska flying. In between, I was flying
58 Post contains images Air1727 : Sounds good M717. Alaska always "breaks" you in...thats if it doesn't break you in half... My favorite place to fly...sheer beauty, grace, and always
59 ScarletHarlot : M717, email me directly if you can't find Larry's website. I'd be happy to send you the link.
60 Post contains images SSTjumbo : I believe there was another thread about flying in Alaska somewhere nestled deep in this forum. I figure I'd like to spend at least a couple of years
61 Air1727 : SSTjumbo; depends on what part of Alaska flying you get into. If you want to fly bush, then you will get plenty of airmanship experience, but if you w
62 Capri : Talking about airspace and noise abatement, it's funny how people forget who or what came first?, i remember early 90's JFK was trying to kill or scar
63 AAR90 : and i bet SNA residents most of them are airline executives Nope, they know the noise isn't going away. or those hollywood weirdos Nope, they live nor
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