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L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.  
User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6573 posts, RR: 55
Posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6962 times:

I just saw an Orient Thai Tristar taxi to the runway in Hong Kong and during the control check, one of the spoiler panels on the outboard section of the starboard wing stay up, after the others had stowed. The aircraft continued taxiing towards the runway and I thought that maybe they would notice it and maybe stop at the holding point. To my amazement, they taxied onto the runway, with the spoiler panel still up and took off! After airbourne I could see the starboard wing continually drop every 10 seconds or so, then level out again. I am listening on my scanner, but as I am not sure what frequency they went to, I can't hear them. They aren't on approach.

I don't know much about the Tristar's systems, but can anyone tell me if there would have been an indication in the cockpit, any aural warnings or warning lights, and the increase in the fuel burn on a 2.5 hour flight, or even the ability to maintain altitude (FL310) at heavier weights.

It was one of those times when I wish I had a direct line to the tower on my phone!

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBromma1968 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6664 times:

I hope some guy at Orient Thai reads this! Your report give me the creeps.
I love to fly on and photograph Tristars so I get seriously worried when I read
your post.

Anders


User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6573 posts, RR: 55
Reply 2, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6636 times:

No-one familiar with Tristar systems? How about other 'classic' aircraft? Did they have the ability to show individual spoiler panel positions?

User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 6619 times:

Reminds me several years ago of a Jersey European (as they then were) BAe146 taxying ahead of us, after the control check the left elevator was full down but the right elevator full up! Thankfully we were on frequency and advised him of the condition, and he returned to stand before takeoff

I dread to think what might have resulted if he had attemped to depart.  Sad



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6594 times:

The surface position indicator in the TriStar will show the position of only four spoiler panels....5L, 4L, 2R, 6R.
It is not all that unusual to find that one panel will remain up after the control check is accomplished (indeed a panel can be seen to be extended at the parking bay sometimes), however, it will blow down when the speed exceeds 180-200 knots. It does however degrade takeoff performance to some extent.
Could be a problem with a limiting departure on a short runway.

When the flaps are retracted in the TriStar, the spoilers are not used for roll augmentation, unlike many Boeing aircraft.


User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6573 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6572 times:

I see....sounds rather dodgy to me. So theoretically you could have a number of spoiler panels stuck in the up position during a heavy weight takeoff on a short runway at a hot and high place and crash because you have no idea of the problem?! Sounds crazy.

User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6570 times:

No more dodgy CXflyboy, that sitting behind a CL-44 on the taxiway, and seeing both ailerons drooping fully down.

Gotta remember, no TriStar has ever crashed due to a aircraft SYSTEM induced problem, only PILOT induced.


User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6573 posts, RR: 55
Reply 7, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6552 times:

Well I can't comment on the CL-44, but surely there must be more to the spoiler system than that? Just because a Tristar has never crashed because of it, it seems to me there is plenty of potential for one! Seeing that Tristar continuously dropping it's right wing it seemed the pilot was probably was having a few difficulties controlling the aircraft. On a hot and high day with a heavy aircraft, maybe bad weather, and throw in an engine failure for good measure, seems almost too much to handle!

User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6539 times:

CXflyboy,

Not for professionals, it isn't.

Why not ask a few who flew 'em at CX, if any are still left.


User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6573 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6532 times:

There are....and I shall do just that! I am intrigued.

....thing is, you must cater for the lowest common denominator, and in this industry there are many pilots who are a little lacking in the 'professionalism' department, especially with some of the more dodgy airlines...Orient Thai being one of them, although I can't speak for their pilots. I have known several people who have flown them and every single one refused to fly with them ever again.

[Edited 2003-08-31 07:57:59]

User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6510 times:

CX flyboy,

Our company knows all about Orient Thai.
Personally repossessed a TriStar from the folks in 1999, and it required more than $100,000 in various spares just to make it airworthy.
Udom was not pleased. But then again, if he paid his bills on time, he would still have the aeroplane.

Good luck with your 'intrigues'.


User currently offlineMusang From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 861 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6481 times:

Ref. the earlier post about non-matching elevator position on a Jersy 146 - its not uncommon to see a 146/RJ100 with one elevator up and the other down. They're not connected. Basically the control column operates a servo tab on the elevator's trailing edge and aerodynamic forces cause the displaced tab to move the elevator.

The columns are connected under the flight deck floor, but there's no connection between the left and right elevator systems anywhere else. So if one side jams the other still works.

At low speeds, no wind across the tail. So you can do what you like with the controls; the tabs will move, but there's nothing to cause the elevators to move.

A gentle breath of wind blows them about, and often the two are in different positions. MD-80 series aircraft show the same feature.

If the Jersey crew felt they should return to stand, they must have both been rather inexperienced!

Regards - Musang


User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6446 times:

Gotta remember, no TriStar has ever crashed due to a aircraft SYSTEM induced problem, only PILOT induced.

And Weather induced.


User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6417 times:

Ah yes, but you must remember, the pilots flew into the weather, knowing full well that it was there....even commented about same, recovered on the CVR.
Not too smart.


User currently offlineM717 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 608 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6412 times:

"the pilots flew into the weather, knowing full well that it was there...Not too smart."

Something that I'm sure you've never done in your long and illustrious career. That 20/20 vision is usually crystal clear, and that armchair quarterbacking in a piece of cake.

What's "not too smart" is your constant criticism of other pilot's decisions. If you can't see that, then you really are "not too smart".  Insane


User currently offlineJason McDowell From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6404 times:


Amen, M717. I couldn't agree more.


-JM






User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6334 times:

Look at the facts.

The First Officer (who was flying, DAL (Dallas L1011 accident) mentioned (recorded on the CVR)...

'look at that, the lightening is coming out the side....", refering to the active cell between them and the landing runway.

Had they survived, it is likely they would have been subject to FAA enforcement action, and possibly criminal action as well.

Stupid is the operative term for these guys. And even many retired DAL guys agree.

Take chances...end up DEAD.


User currently offlineBroke From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 1322 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6311 times:

The L-1011 had a problem where the hydraulic fluid in the spoiler actuator would leak from one side of the actuator to the other causing the panel to extend.
This would usually occur on the ground from residual pressure in the system. Once normal hydraulic pressure was applied, the panel would retract.
So it was possible to see an airplane on the ground with one panel extended; it was not common, but it did happen.


User currently offlineM717 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 608 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6299 times:

So, 411A..

You have NEVER operated in an area of "active" weather? You would have bailed out that day at DFW...not knowing what you know now, but with the information that was presented to that crew? I noticed that none of the other aircraft that flew into DFW immediately prior to the DL flight were subjected to "FAA enforcement action" or "criminal action". Give me a f*cking break. You claim to be an "airline captain"???

I just find it disgusting that you are on various message boards..not just this one...constantly criticizing decisions that other pilots make. I guess that somehow by pointing out what you perceive as failings in others make up for the deficiencies you see in yourself. Kind of sad, actually.

Get a life. Or is this your life?  Insane


User currently offlineAJ From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2386 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6278 times:

CXflyboy, when you've talked to any previous L1011 pilots please let us know their responses here.

It was always disconcerting on the Mu-2 that when holding the aircraft upright engine out with a whole lot of rudder and 'aileron' that it meant the spoiler panels were all sticking up on one wing....not good for the climb gradient.

As for the DFW accident; as with most things in aviation the deaths of the crew have taught the rest of us an important lesson and led to a better understanding of windshear and microbursts. I've ranted about the tombstone imperative before on this forum, but it is now nice to know that my aircraft will announce 'WINDSHEAR, WINDSHEAR' and I have a prescribed escape procedure.

'TERRAIN, TERRAIN', 'TRAFFIC, TRAFFIC' and so on are a result of too much blood spilt, and now protect me and the hundreds of people following me.

Post mortem these guys did not deliberately kill themselves and their passengers, however the lives they have indirectly saved outnumber the numbers killed in the accident. Fault and blame is human nature, so I don't critisize those DIRECTLY involved for doing so, but the rest of us should simply learn from these occurences.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6275 times:

Man, I've seen some "thread creep" on boards before, but this one is a doozy...

In case anyone wants/needs some factual info on DL191, check out...

http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR86-05.pdf

Many interesting tidbits, but it's noteworthy that...

1/ The cell involved went from a DVIP level-1 intensity to a DVIP level-4 intensity in the space of a mere 8 minutes...

2/ Several other pilots observed the lightning...

3/ The CWSU met guy was on a lunch break, and nobdy caught the rapid escalation of the cell.

Lots of other info bits, too numerous to mention...

Dr. Ted Fujita (yes, -that- one) had a book out on this accident in the late 1980s called (appropriately enough) "The DFW Microburst" and it's must reading for anyone in avaiation....


User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6266 times:

M717,

You are correct that I am on several message boards, and my comments generally are directed toward those that SHOULD know better, but somehow have missed the boat when aviation saftey is discussed.

Junior guys have an excuse...they have not been exposed to thousands of airline flight operations over many years.
BUT, the senior guys absolutely should know better, and have a duty and responsibility to teach others so that mistakes are not repeated. Have been involved in airline checking/training worldwide since 1979, so definately have an idea what works (keeps you alive), and what does not (dead).

CXflyboy,

You mentioned previously that you were a 777 second officer (or was it first officer) for CX.
Find it strange that you hang 'round the HongKong airport with a scanner, generally find that flight crew have 'had enough' when they are on the ground.
Could it be that you are not as advertised? Or maybe, just a total aviation person... Wow!


User currently offlinePositive rate From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 2143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6250 times:

Did all the flightcrew of DL 191 perish in the accident? I thought at least the FE survived?

User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6248 times:

All cockpit crew lost...

"Of the 163 persons aboard. 134 passengers and crewmembers were killed; 26 passengers and 3 cabin attendants survived."


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6240 times:

...I do seem to recall that the F/E on Eastern 401 (CFIT, Everglades, 1972) was down in the E&E and survived the initial impact, only to pass away later.. Was that the one you were thinking about?

25 Positive rate : Yeah must of been the Eastern L1011 accident thanks. He did indeed survive and was even interviewed before he passed away later.
26 Cx flyboy : 411A, I am indeed a total aviation person. As a kid I used to go to Kai Tak and watch planes and take photos. Many on this website are from me. I had
27 Barney captain : "Have been involved in airline checking/training worldwide since 1979,.." But have you done any actual LINE flying. Your comments smack of someone tha
28 Air1727 : Without going into specifics, the L-1011 has no problem taking off with a spoiler panel deployed. The L-1011 has been tested to perform with all three
29 Post contains images 411A : Barney, Is 23,000 line flying hours (17,000 in heavy jets) enough for you? My comments notwithstanding, have been there/done that, so definately know
30 Post contains images N243NW : Cx Flyboy- Is there any chance that you saw the roll spoilers deployed due to a crosswind from the right? The roll spoilers assist the ailerons with r
31 Cx flyboy : N243NW, No, it was definately not that. It was stuck after the control check. The same tristar came in again today, and my friend saw it and said he s
32 Barney captain : 411a, Fair enough. Your post referred to Airline checking/training, I was simply looking for clarification. I still disagree with your Monday morning
33 411A : Interesting about the L1011. Worked at a middle-east company that had quite a few, and former Lockheed development/production test pilots were hired t
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