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Crash Avoidance Over Sea  
User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1399 times:

Hi,

I somewhere read, that for example over the atlantic the pilots have no radio contact to ground.

How is it done, that all the AC out there wouldn't crash? Is it like assigning different FL before flight, are there sort of different "roads" to fly on, pilots radioing to each other to discuss, who will leave the way...? Probably this thread is a reason for laughter, but some info would be appreciated.

greets...


Putana da Seatbeltz!
12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineGoboeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2683 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1379 times:

I am not an expert; the pros on this forum can explain the details. But basically, there are at least 6 "tracks" a day each way over the North Atlantic Ocean. Control is split at I believe 15W longitude (if that's incorrect, then the mid-point of the ocean is where it is divided). The east portion is controlled by "Shanwick" in Ireland, and the west portion is controlled by a center in Gander, Newfoundland. Aircraft can communicate with the on HF radio, and many newer jets have SELCAL which stands for "Selective Call" or "-calling". It's an electronic datalink operation and position reports can be made that way instead of the cumbersome HF radio. This is what I remember from sitting jumpseat in a BA777...like I said, the rest can be explained better. Here is an example of the NAT (North Atlantic Track(s)) for a today:



041404 CZQXZQZX
(NAT-1/2 TRACKS FLS 320/400 INCLUSIVE
NOV 05/0100Z TO NOV 05/0800Z

PART ONE OF TWO PARTS-

U VIXUN 49/50 50/40 52/30 53/20 MALOT BURAK
EAST LVLS 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390 400
WEST LVLS NIL
EUR RTS WEST NIL
NAR N63B N67B-

V YYT 48/50 49/40 51/30 52/20 LIMRI DOLIP
EAST LVLS 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390 400
WEST LVLS NIL
EUR RTS WEST NIL
NAR N53B N59A-

W COLOR 47/50 48/40 50/30 51/20 DINIM GIPER
EAST LVLS 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390 400
WEST LVLS NIL
EUR RTS WEST NIL
NAR N43A N49A-

X BANCS 46/50 47/40 49/30 50/20 SOMAX KENUK
EAST LVLS 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390 400
WEST LVLS NIL
EUR RTS WEST NIL
NAR N35A N41C-

Y RAFIN 45/50 46/40 48/30 49/20 BEDRA GUNSO
EAST LVLS 320 330 340 350 370 380 390 400
WEST LVLS NIL
EUR RTS WEST NIL
NAR N27A N33C-

END OF PART ONE OF TWO PARTS)


041410 CZQXZQZX
(NAT-2/2 TRACKS FLS 310/400 INCLUSIVE
NOV 05/0100Z TO NOV 05/0800Z

PART TWO OF TWO PARTS-

Z HEROS 40/60 43/50 45/40 47/30 48/20 48/15 ETIKI REGHI
EAST LVLS 310 340 380
WEST LVLS NIL
EUR RTS WEST NIL
NAR NIL-

REMARKS
1.TRACK MESSAGE IDENTIFICATION 309.

2.CLEARANCE DELIVERY FREQUENCY ASSIGNMENTS FOR AIRCRAFT OPERATING
FROM MOATT TO BOBTU INCLUSIVE:
MOATT TO SCROD 128.7
OYSTR TO CYMON 135.45
YQX TO YYT 135.05
COLOR TO BANCS 128.45
RAFIN TO BOBTU 119.42

3.MNPS AIRSPACE EXTENDS FROM FL285 TO FL420. OPERATORS ARE REMINDED
THAT MNPS APPROVAL IS REQUIRED TO FLY IN THIS AIRSPACE.
IN ADDITION, RVSM APPROVAL IS REQUIRED TO FLY WITHIN THE NAT
REGIONS BETWEEN FL290 AND FL410 INCLUSIVE. REFER TO INTERNATIONAL
NOTAM CZQX A0080/02.

4.80 PERCENT OF GROSS NAVIGATIONAL ERRORS RESULT FROM POOR COCKPIT
PROCEDURES. ALWAYS CARRY OUT PROPER WAYPOINT CHECKS.

5.NAT EASTBOUND FLIGHT PLANNING RESTRICTIONS IN FORCE.
REFER TO EGGX G0318/03, EGGX G0322/03.

6. REFER TO NOTAM CZQX A8854/03-NAT TRACK MESSAGE AMENDMENT
PROCEDURE CHANGE.


END OF PART TWO OF TWO PARTS)




042132 EGGXZOZX
(NAT-1/2 TRACKS FLS 310/390 INCLUSIVE
NOV 05/1130Z TO NOV 05/1900Z
PART ONE OF TWO PARTS-
A NIBOG 57/20 57/30 56/40 54/50 CARPE REDBY
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390
EUR RTS WEST NURSI
NAR N204B N206C N210E-
B MASIT 56/20 56/30 55/40 53/50 YAY
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390
EUR RTS WEST DEVOL
NAR N184B N188B N192C-
C DOGAL 55/20 55/30 54/40 52/50 DOTTY
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390
EUR RTS WEST BURAK
NAR N162B N164B-
D MALOT 54/20 54/30 53/40 51/50 CYMON
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390
EUR RTS WEST DOLIP
NAR N142B N148B-
END OF PART ONE OF TWO PARTS)




Nick


User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3635 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1358 times:
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In addition to the tracks, all aircraft are equipped with TCAS which will warn pilots that an aircraft is too close and will instruct the pilots to take action and in which direction they should direct the aircraft to avoid a collision. The TCAS systems are also supposed to be able to talk to each other so that they don't direct the aircraft in the same direction and back on a collision course.

User currently offlineScarletHarlot From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 4673 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1361 times:

The separation of the tracks are statistically studied to make the chance of a collision minimal. I worked for Transport Canada on this statistical analysis and we came up with an estimate that two aircraft would stray off course and into each other once every 100+ years. Considering powered flight hasn't quite been around that long, that's not a bad statistic.

It was pretty cool to work on - we would get lists of a day's worth of flights, and had a program that would take that info in, increase the traffic by particular parameters, and calculate mean tracks and standard deviations. We would then analyze this to come up with collision risks.



But that was when I ruled the world
User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1356 times:

Good information. In addition to the NAT tracks, you also have ransom routes which comprise all of the oceanic traffic not on the tracks. The NAT tracks basically handle the NYC, Boston, etc to London, Paris, etc traffic. The rest of the traffic operates on random or "non track" routings. For example, we would frequently fly from Portland Oregon to London or Riga. Those routes were always random.

Jetguy


User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1347 times:

Awesome guys! this was really great! Thank You very much!


Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1324 times:

Dear Nuedelhirsch -
xxx
Where in hell did you hear to airplanes have no contact with "ground"...?
xxx
Airplanes DO HAVE radio communications over any oceanic areas, but they use HF radios (which are long distance radios) instead of VHF radios. They make communications with ground stations at every reporting point, and also when directed to or requesting altitude changes.
xxx
For the North Atlantic, the two most important ATC stations are Shanwick and Gander, the boundary of their ATC "sectors" is, at 30 degrees W longitude... Santa Maria, and New York also share some other areas of the North Atlantic.
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
(s) Skipper


User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1309 times:

Yo, Skipper, right-on!

I do for sure not read tabloids or so, but my way is limited by business-press...as I'm not in aviation other than just my favourite hobby...
My Business-Admin-Professors are so "limited" on business, my eyes keep me out of flying...whatever, if one of You guys need business-information... Smile

Thanks really much for Your answer, it's clearing up really much!

My limited information was just INS and GPS...(I was actually "proud" to sort of figure out what INS is...sad to see my horizon break down...great to see it widened...!)

I actually might be looking like some totally scared guy...which is just wrong, I'm confident AND curious...

So I appreciate any professional aviation help, that's what brings me here...



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1304 times:

In additon to HF (and limited VHF), Sat Com is starting to play a role in oceanic travel. I've heard stories where crews have called Shanwick and Gander on the phone for their clearances and position reports when all else failed.

Pop Quiz...

I know where Gander is, also New York and Santa Maria. Where is Shanwick?

Jetguy


User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1317 times:

Ooops, my friend Jetguy... that is a nasty one...
xxx
Once met a gorgeous redhead girl (a long time ago when I was single)...
She gave me her address in "Shanwick"...
Found out there is no such place...
xxx
"Shanwick" is the contraction of name of Prestwick, Scotland, and Shannon, Ireland.
The actual control center is near Prestwick, while the antennas are in Shannon...
Good one there, Jetguy... but I once visited the Oceanic ATC Center there...
xxx
So girls who have an address in Shanwick, will not be a long term relation.
That is what Mr. Kroc O'Dyle told me...
xxx
Happy contrails...  Smile
(s) Skipper


User currently offlineAJ From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2386 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1291 times:

It can all still break down, leaving TCAS as a valuable tool as two Qantas Boeing 747-400s and an Air New Zealand Boeing 747-400 found out when the Tahitians tried to make an aluminium meteor in their FIR. Have a look:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=485


User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1284 times:

Skipper...
I knew you could do it!  Big thumbs up

Jetguy


User currently offlineBackfire From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 8 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1170 times:

Control is split at I believe 15W longitude

I think the Gander/Shanwick split is actually at 30W.


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