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A Question On LCD Emergency Instruments  
User currently offlineUTA_flyinghigh From Tunisia, joined Oct 2001, 6495 posts, RR: 50
Posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2381 times:


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...now that most, if not all latest-generation aircraft have LCD emergency instruments (and some older ones as well), how long would the batteries powering them last in the event of total engine failure ? (a la TS 332 for example)
Will


Fly to live, live to fly - Air France/KLM Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Diamond Club Gold, Emirates Skywards
8 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10333 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2291 times:

I'm no expert, but aren't most modern airliners' main (as opposed to emergency) instruments either CRT or LCD these days? Or is there a distinction that I'm not aware of (which is very possible)? I might be confused just because the picture is of a 733 which seems to have CRT main instruments, with analog/gyro or whatever backups.
~Vik



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offline707cmf From France, joined Mar 2002, 4885 posts, RR: 29
Reply 2, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2248 times:

Can you spell PLUG ?

707,Elbonian plugger


User currently offlineDw747400 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2191 times:

I'd be willing to bet they can last longer than the gliding time of the given aircraft...

Additionally, all aircraft that rely on electrical power for emergency instruments, flight control, etc. have Ram Air Turbines that can provide a little bit of power in the event of total generator or total engine failure. Additionally, you have the APU available. Some of the pilots here might be able to share some numbers or procedures, but fro my understanding, in most instances that result in loss of your engine-driven generators, you probably have bigger things to worry about.




CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6965 posts, RR: 76
Reply 4, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2182 times:

The case of the PK-GWA crash last year, both engines flamed out on descent below FL150 and instead of turning on the APU, they tried to Flight Start the engines. Those batteries went flat pretty quick...

So, don't try and FLT START the engines, get the APU on first... *unless cumulus granitus is very very near!*

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2178 times:

Look on the captains panel, there is a electronic standby horizon. From what I remember you have a typical 30 minute battery life with no other sources such as RATs. A couple of nit-picking points; you can have total generator failure without engine failure. So you could be mid-Atlantic with no generators, but the engines will still get you across. Not all aircraft have RATs, but probably the new generation ones that this thread started about do.
A lot of things have to go wrong before you are on batteries alone, but sometimes this can happen.
As far as whether electronic all-in-one standby instruments last longer, I don`t know. The only one that needs electriciity is the gyro horizon. Airspeed, altitude, magnetic compass, all these can be mechanical, and use no power at all. The reason the new units are popular is that they take up very little panel space, offer all the information in one place, and reduce the number of parts the operator has to stock and maintain.


User currently offlineDw747400 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2116 times:

Avt,

What I mentioned was that aircraft that rely on electronic flight controls or have standby instruments that are LCDs or CRTs have RATs. I know that some of the older aircraft don't, but I'm pretty sure that RATs are standard on the big FBW aircraft.

I believe the 747 also has a RAT, but it only provides hydraulic power... not sure about that. OF course, 747 doesn't have the same power demands as a 777, which I do know has a generator attached to its RAT.

As for generator failure without engine failure, I guess I was awfully vague on that... I'm with that its possible, though from what I know, it seems very unlikely. I would guess you could have bus or other electrical problems that produce the same affect as well.



CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2115 times:

The rules are slightly different depending on who’s rules you are operating under. In the FAA/TCCA world 30 minutes is the standard. In the JAA world, its 60 minutes.

There is some draft policy that many consider when designing these systems that increase this time to a more logical value depending on the typical aircraft operations. For example, why mandate only 30 minutes on a 180 minute ETOPS airplane?

I recently designed one such system for a business jet that meets the 180 minute constraint. With a full charge, a typical emergency battery pack can operated a typical electronic emergency instrument such as the Goodrich GH3100 for over 360 minutes.

One of the weaknesses of the electronic standby instruments is that ANY momentary disruption in power can cause them to fail and not be able to re-initialize in flight. So even minor disruptions are not tolerable.


User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2067 times:

dw, I hadn`t really thought about the FBW aspect, since I`ve never worked on them . Good point!

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