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Maps In The Cockpit  
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4474 posts, RR: 7
Posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4006 times:

With all the new real time mapping software available to us civilians on the ground (i.e. Flight Explorer, etc), I was wondering if the cockpit crew use the same kind of software to know exactly where they are during a flight.

How DO they know that they're "...99 miles NW of Newark International Airport"?

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQantasA332 From Australia, joined Dec 2003, 1500 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3974 times:

GPS usually...........

Cheers,
QantasA332


User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3150 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3969 times:

Or they have a waypoint on their log with that distance from or to a point. THey could also be using DME. But I'm guessing GPS. Keep in mind that you still need to have all appropriate charts for a given flight to be legal. GPS is becoming too much of a crutch.


DMI
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4474 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3948 times:

Thanks much for the replies, so far.

So, if I understand correctly, if they're using GPS, they still need to manually plot those coordinates on a map if they wanted to visually represent where they were?


User currently offlineQantasA332 From Australia, joined Dec 2003, 1500 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3922 times:

So, if I understand correctly, if they're using GPS, they still need to manually plot those coordinates on a map if they wanted to visually represent where they were?

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. GPS is basically just an electronic map with your location and other stuff on it, so no plotting on maps to visualize location is necessary...

Is that what you were wondering? If not, please clarify your question and I'll be able to answer it better...

Cheers,
QantasA332


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4474 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3911 times:


If not, please clarify your question and I'll be able to answer it better...


Yes, that's the essence of my question. Do the pilots (commercial jet aircraft) get to see their position plotted on an electronic map for them or do they have to plot it themselves?

Sorry for the rather ambiguous original wording to the question!


User currently offlineQantasA332 From Australia, joined Dec 2003, 1500 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3903 times:

Do the pilots (commercial jet aircraft) get to see their position plotted on an electronic map for them or do they have to plot it themselves?

Yes, with GPS an aircraft's position is plotted on an electronic map, so the pilots don't have to plot themselves.

Cheers,
QantasA332


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4474 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3893 times:

Got it. Thanks so much for the answer, QantasA332!

User currently offlineQantasA332 From Australia, joined Dec 2003, 1500 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3889 times:

You're very welcome.

Cheers,
QantasA332


User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

Having said all this, was deadheading on a DAL flight a few years ago (B757) and the Captain had his enroute chart out, properly folded and all.
The First Officer however, had no chart in sight, and when I asked the Captain, 'why not?'...the reply was...'even IF he had a chart, he STILL wouldn't know where he was."

So very true.


User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3150 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3853 times:

The route, or position can usually be placed on the EHSI on EFAS systems depending on what function the pilot is using. There are quite a few cockpit photos on this site that illustrate that pretty clearly. Also, many GA aircraft with GPS systems may incorporate a MFD that can overlay GPS info with terrain, or in the case of the Garmin 430, it presents a color map on the unit itself. Be aware though, that some earlier systems just presented a Course Deviation Indicator (CDI) and may not have the 'moving map' feature.

Nevertheless, GPS is still not seen by the FAA as a primary source of navigation. In order to use it in IFR flight the unit must be approved and the aircraft must have another type of navigation system like VOR, or NDB capability. In theory, you don't have to plot your course on a chart. You never really do. However, knowing where you are is an important factor in situational awareness. Knowing where you are, without the electronic gizmos, may save your butt some day if those gizmos stop working. I for one, think it is a dying art as a result of the advent of GPS.



DMI
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3855 times:

For those that have been flying long overseas routes for a few years will realise that...

GPS very definately IS approved as a primary means of navigation, class one and two, and has been for quite some time.
In the TMA, if a GPS approach is anticipated, the alternate filed must have another type of approach...ie: NDB, VOR, ILS etc.

Seems logical to me.

Mainly the Europeans have been dragged, kicking and screaming into the GPS arena...but now find it is the best thing since sliced bread.

What a surprise.


User currently offlineB747Skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3836 times:

Actually, we still use maps in the cockpit, despite INS and GPS systems...
Plotting our route on a map is only done on overwater flights, as a means to follow the progress of the flight, since no ground stations are available.
xxx
We use CDs from Jeppesen to publish all our departure, approach and landing charts required, our runway analysis, but we still have a complete library of enroute high, low and area charts with us.
xxx
Takes only 4 standard Jeppesen binders to cover the world in enroute charts and 2 CDs. Our 747-287s, 20-25 years old airplanes, still use a 3 INS system, but they are updated by 2 GPS in the triple mix mode.
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
(s) Skipper


User currently offlineFredT From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 2185 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3821 times:

Chiming in with Pilotpip here, I would not call it GPS, although GPS is one source of positional information used to update some navigation systems.

And it is not the end-all, be all. You're still required to cross monitor with the fixed navaids, something made a lot easier with the map displays installed. A nav system might drift off and you better catch that through checking where you have your beacons.

I have my suspicions that this practise is often left aside though... which is somewhat scary.

Cheers,
Fred



I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3811 times:

"...GPS is becoming too much of a crutch."

Of course, GPS can be misused - it is no different than any other piece of avionics on the flight deck. But there is nothing wrong with using EVERY tool at your disposal to safely conduct a flight. In the nearly 40 years that I've been a pilot I've heard it all - Real pilots don't use autopilots; Real pilots don't use flight directors; Real pilots don't do this or they don't do that. In the words of that great American, Colonel Sherman T. Potter, "Monkey Muffins".

I can't speak for the airline crews out there today, but in our corporate birds with dual or triple FMS installations with moving map displays on the MFDs there's really not a lot of point in having the maps out and following along during the enroute phase of the flight. Yes, they are close at hand and referred to when necessary. What we do have out and follow along with are our computer generated navigation logs.

Jetguy


User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 67
Reply 15, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3730 times:

Note in the following procedure described by a DC-9 and MD-80 pilot how, despite ILS, he sets ALL the navaids: http://www.scandva.org/ops/proc/ils_approach.htm. Good pilots have backups upon backups and can still do the NDB/VOR stuff despite having a GPS. That's the same as Coast Guard officers learning to navigate with a sextant and chronometer. Just in case.

BTW here is an index of all the procedures described if you are interested: http://www.scandva.org/ops/proc/proc.htm.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 67
Reply 16, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3722 times:

I described the "next step" of maps in the cockpit in another thread. Replaying it here since it seems pertinent.

The Swedish inventor Håkan Lans devised a system called GP&C (Global positioning & communication). It's used on every ship over 300 tonnes. It may become the standard for aviation. See here if you read Swedish: http://www.uppfinnaren.com/nr2_01/lans.htm. Here is some info on the GP&C hybrid landing system: http://www.gpc.se/landing/index.htm

I once landed in the jumpseat of an SK DC-9 equipped with the system. The pilot showed how he could navigate to the gate in zero viz. The display showed every taxiway, building and so forth. He didn't actually do it since other vehicles were not shown (not equipped with the system). SAS was simply trying the system out. He was just showing off how he could have.

So what is the diff between this and GPS and TCAS? Basically precision. GPS and TCAS become kind of iffy when you are down on the ground since they don't scale down to 5 meters. GP&C allows precisions down to 1-1.5 meters, in other words quite enough to taxi to the gate with really thick fog and no lights.

Also, that kind of system would be installed on ALL vehicles at the airport. Otherwise, how would firemen find a burning jetliner in zero viz for example? Or how would trucks avoid planes in the fog.

Read more about GP&C here: http://www.gpc.se/index.htm

Here is a pertinent article from Flight International: http://www.gpc.se/press/flight5.htm



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineFredT From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 2185 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3676 times:

Called ADS-B now... we're trying it out in my flying club.

Cheers,
Fred



I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 67
Reply 18, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3651 times:

your impressions of the system?


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineFredT From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 2185 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3541 times:

I'll have to get back once I've had a chance to mess around with it in person.  Smile

Cheers,
Fred



I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4200 posts, RR: 37
Reply 20, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3486 times:

Actually..alot of airliners that have FMS...the FMS prefers DME-DME for position calculation and then backs it up with GPS..not GPS as the primary. This is true for almost every airliner that I know of. Pretty much the only time I have to get a map out is when our FMS fails...that's happened twice. No big deal, just go back to the "normal" way of navigating...I enjoy it that way actually. I've had to pull out a map a few other times...though usually we are just going direct to somewhere and there's not much a need to have one out.

They also make great sun visors!



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3484 times:

Denny,
That's not always the case, in fact, it might indicate that there may be a problem with the system setup. On almost all modern FMSes the computer prioritizes the various available position inputs (DME/DME, GPS, INS, IRS, Loran, etc.) to come up with what manufacturers call the "Best Computed Position" via the use of a "Kolsman" filter. Almost all modern FMS/FMC systems (including the Universal UNS-1 in it's various iterations) use GPS as primary position source, but ONLY if a valid and useable GPS signal is available. The FMSes only use the Kolsmann Filter to come up with a BCP when no valid GPS is available.
Jetguy


User currently offlineBa299 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2003, 173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3470 times:

The FMC on our B777 has the following priority:

on the ground: IRS only
during the flight: DME/DME than GPS than IRS

somebody know about the B767???


User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3474 posts, RR: 47
Reply 23, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3370 times:

I can't speak for the airline crews out there today, but in our corporate birds with dual or triple FMS installations with moving map displays on the MFDs there's really not a lot of point in having the maps out and following along during the enroute phase of the flight.

The point of having a chart "readily available" is the FAA requires it. FAA assigned POI for AA interprets that to mean the chart must be out of the kit bag/binder. The cost of not pulling out the chart is $10,000.00  Crying so I pull mine out each and every flight. Have not opened one up to actually look at one in more than a year though.  Big thumbs up




*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3354 times:

AAR90...
You're absolutely correct about that. We keep our high altitude enroute charts out of the book and safely stowed (read: readily available) in the copilot's chart pocket on the R/H cockpit sidewall.

Jetguy


25 Post contains images B747skipper : For us, the dispatcher prints all SIDs, STARs and APP charts before departure from a Jeppesen CD. We then receive a flight folder containing our CFP f
26 Ba299 : Hey skipper, do you know the name of that jeppesen sys.??
27 Jetguy : Ba299... I'm sure that he's probably talking about JeppView. We've been using it for years. It's a great tool. Jetguy
28 Post contains links Airplay : Actually..alot of airliners that have FMS...the FMS prefers DME-DME for position calculation and then backs it up with GPS..not GPS as the primary. Ab
29 XFSUgimpLB41X : Airplay- .most airliners use DME/DME as primary with GPS as a backup. Our's poops a brick if it loses VOR reception...but is cooler than a polar bears
30 Ba299 : XFSUgimpLB41X I talked about the 777 in the BA fleet. May be that other airlines use other system.
31 Post contains images XFSUgimpLB41X : Ba299- Sorry if that was unclear- I was referring Airplay back to your post.
32 Post contains images L-188 : You realize that there have never been maps in cockpits. We call them "Charts" [Edited 2004-03-08 13:53:31]
33 Ba299 : XFSUgimpLB41X It was clear but. I was referring to our 777 may be other airlines use other sys
34 Airplay : Airplay- .most airliners use DME/DME as primary with GPS as a backup. Our's poops a brick if it loses VOR reception...but is cooler than a polar bears
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