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Paint Weight And Cost  
User currently offlineBA777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2173 posts, RR: 7
Posted (10 years 5 months 2 days ago) and read 8074 times:

Afternoon all  Smile

I was just wondering how airlines figure out how much a new coat of paint would cost to apply. For example, does blue paint cost more than red? What about the weight too - are certain colours more expensive?

Is there any way at all to actually figure out the amount of paint and the cost needed to paint say a 737 in a certain scheme for example?

Cheers,

Henry

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline747Teach From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 176 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (10 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8038 times:

BA777: A few years ago I was involved in painting 747's. If I remember correctly, from bare metal out, we figured about 60 gallons of primer (including catalyst), and 60 gallons of various colors (including catalyst), for a total of 120 gallons. The Crown Metro High Solids paint we used weighed about 10 pounds per gallon, so that works out to about 1200 pounds of paint. I don't recall that any one color cost any more than any other, but we bought in large quanities. With the strip, cleaning, and repaint, we figured about $147,000 per plane. Took about 10 days to 2 weeks, with a crew of about 15 per shift on 2 shifts.
I'm sure the major airlines and paint manufacturers can put their computers to work and figure out about how much paint any particular scheme will require. Regards,


User currently offlineA330Fan1 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 856 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7989 times:

I am not sure this is right, but I read somewhere that the paint applied to a B747 is equivalent to the weight of 12 horses!!! I am not sure where I read it or even if I remember it correctly.

-A330Fan1


User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2686 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (10 years 5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7976 times:

So does AA save money then in fuel costs because their planes have very little paint on them?

User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2686 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (10 years 5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7970 times:

Another thought. If that's true, then all the airlines can fly bare metal planes around as a cost cutting measure. No one will be able to tell what airline the plane is, but hey, the atmosphere nowadays is to cut costs as much as possible!

I hope FR doesn't see that idea - pretty soon their planes will be all bare metal.


User currently offlineBio15 From Colombia, joined Mar 2001, 1089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (10 years 5 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7956 times:

"So does AA save money then in fuel costs because their planes have very little paint on them?"

Yes, they save money in fuel costs. However, bare metal is not actually bare metal. There is a special polish that needs to be applied on top of the bare metal to prevent corrosion. I heard somewhere that this polish is expensive compared to the regular paint, and it needs to be taken care of more constantly. I also recall hearing that the costs tend to even out with fuel savings so there's not much of a difference.

Good Luck Smile
-Alfredo


User currently offlineSmithfly114 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 243 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7926 times:

Actually AA advertises and is proud of the fact that their planes are lighter and cost less to paint ( yes there is the cost of the polish, however it would probably be miniscule compared to the paint)

User currently offlineAvioniker From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1109 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (10 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 7880 times:

The paint for a full-up DC10 comes in at 2200 pounds (plus or minus depending on solids content) after drying.


One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
User currently offlineWilco From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 355 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7751 times:

am i dreaming or did AA also claim- internally at least- that the lack-of-paint made it easier for mechanics to identify leaks and other problems early on?


"Ever seen a grown man naked?"
User currently offlineYooYoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7741 times:

I remember reading a "quick fact" on Westjet's web site that the weight of paint to cover their 737's is 300 lbs.

Andreas  Big thumbs up



I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently onlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3740 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7707 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

2200 lbs for a DC-10? I think that's way too much. Then how would you explain this if you need 1200 lbs for a 747? A DC-10 isn't any larger than a 747 is it? 300 lbs for a 737 that makes sense. I remember reading somewhere how much paint a 747 needs when being repainted, but I don't remember the figures. I'll look it up in my books when I'm home.

Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7710 times:

From actual invoice numbers.

Lockheed L1011-1:

Strip and paint, all one color (Boeing gray), $113,940

Scuff and paint, again all one color (Boeing gray), $ 66,430.

In each case, paint weight....840 pounds. Note, NOT including the wings.

Case closed.


User currently offlineTheiler From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 633 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7691 times:

Just out of curiousity, do these numbers include provisions for vaporization? It's probably quite difficult to calculate the true percentage of paint that actually sees the airframe (though I'm not familiar with av-painting methods).

User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7677 times:

Theiler,

You bring up an interesting question.

The answer...
HVLP (high volume low pressure) is used, about 91% of the paint goes on the aircraft.

Having said this, pressure rollers can be used as well. Figure nearly 100% in this case.

Direct answer, the figure I quoted was...on the aircraft, as recorded on the weight & balance forms.



User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17001 posts, RR: 67
Reply 14, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7652 times:

Sharkskin: It's not really smooth, and yet sharks are very nicely hydrodynamic. It turns out that the surface consists of very small ridges. Experiments show that this reduces drag (from the skin) by 1-2%.

IIRC, CX were playing with this about a decade ago. They painted some of their planes with "sharkskin texture" instead of smooth paint. This decreased fuel burn by a minute amount. Unfortunately the paint job cost much more than a standard one, offsetting the savings. I am not sure how exactly the tests turned out in the end.




"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineSammyhostie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7649 times:

Amrican have no paint at all on their a/c's, only transfers for the stripes, plain alumiminum for the body!

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17001 posts, RR: 67
Reply 16, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 7642 times:

They still have paint of some kind. Bare metal is not a good idea.


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineSammyhostie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 7641 times:

They do not Stalionblue, my friends works in the hangar and he should know!
Why do you always assume you know everything!

The reason they dont paint their aircraft is

a) It saves on costs / upkeep and initial

b) Cheaper to run, lighter because of no paint

and c) It looks good!


User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks ago) and read 7632 times:

AA do indeed have paint on many parts of some of their aircraft....figerglass/composite fairings for example.
In addition, the entire A300-600 is painted, as AirBus does not like to deliver unpained aircraft, due to corrosion issues, among others.


User currently onlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3740 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks ago) and read 7629 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Not anymore. If you notice all of AA's A300's have the bare metal scheme like all other types, just the rear section of the fuselage, the tail and the center section on the belly are still painted in gray. It was 10 years ago that American removed the paint on the aluminium skin, indeed to save weight and paint each time the aircraft is due for its MX D-check. But you're right, when they were delivered fresh out of the factory from Toulouse France back in the late 80's/early 90's they were entirely painted in gray to prevent corrosion on the aluminum skin.

Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17001 posts, RR: 67
Reply 20, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7627 times:

I stand corrected. Break out the windex!


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7633 times:

I used to own a Schweizer 1-23G sailplane. The paint was pretty ratty when I got it so I had it stripped and repainted. Just for grins, we reweighed it after it had been stripped and it was 40 lbs lighter. (Of course, it had something like 5 or 6 coats of paint in some areas.) You really wouldn't think so, but paint is heavy and excess weight is one of those things that aircraft - any aircraft - don't need.

Jetguy


User currently offlineBA777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2173 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7583 times:

Hey Guys,

OK so just how much would 300lbs of paint for a 737 end up costing? A few thousand?

Cheers for all your replies, an interesting topic  Smile

Henry


User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5119 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 6782 times:

Here's a definitive article from Boeing, which says that net expense of operating polished aircraft are generally a bit *higher* than painted, due to labor required for more frequent repolishing than repainting.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...zine/aero_05/textonly/fo01txt.html

Best,

Bill


User currently offlineAmeriCam From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 29 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6712 times:

I've heard from multiple sources that the reason for the AA A300 being painted from the factory had nothing to do with corrosion issues. It was actually due to an issue with the supplier of the fuselage aluminum. It was, in fact, that the color consistancy of the aluminum (sheet to sheet) wasn't as uniform as AA had hoped, therefore a descision was made to paint the aircraft, rather than having a flying "disco-ball."

Cameron



"If you're going to crash, make it a fiery one."
25 Abbs380 : I think there is something to what AmeriCam says. I used to work for an airline that bought several new 747f/s which were mostly bare aluminum. They l
26 ExPanAmer : Different colors likely cost more or less than others.In the automobile world, a Quart of red Dupont ChromaPremier is about $90.00. Blue about $60.00.
27 Wheeltug : To rephrase BA777's question - what does the additional weight of this paint actually cost the operator. Is there a rule of thumb for extra weight cos
28 Oryx : No they can't. The public relations (?) department requieres a unique and for the public easy to identify scheme. So the bare-metal-scheme is burned
29 Post contains links YYZYYT : As it happens there have been recent real-life experiments, by AC. They stripped a 767, anticipating savings of 360 lbs and $24,000 / yr in fuel cost
30 474218 : Eastern stripped the paint from their L-1011's too match the remainder of their fleet in the 1980's. And in the 1950's and 60's Eastern motto was "Th
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