Boeing nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (11 years 5 months 4 hours ago) and read 25675 times:
I have heard around that the turbo powered version of the Cessna 210 is somewhat of a maintenance pig. Somewhat more problematic versus the normally asperated 210. I really like the 210 and I'm trying to learn more about it. Has anybody heard this? Or is it a bit innacurate.
Canoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2876 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (11 years 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 25658 times:
I'm a little removed from the GA world, but when I did work at a smaller airport we had both the turbo and non-turbo 210 based there. I seem to remember that the turbo was harder on the engine, and I could be wrong but I think the TBO was shorter for the turbo.
G4doc2004 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (11 years 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 25580 times:
The maintenance of a T-210 versus the 210 is related to the fact that both engines are tightly cowled and heat is a major factor in the life of a piston engine. The turbo runs really hot (cherry red when viewed at night) and is a factor in the heat. All 210's were famous for maintenance issues, primarily the landing gear system. I've got about 300 hours in 210's including the hotrod P-210........great flying airplanes!!
"Failure to prepare is preparing to fail"--Benjamin Franklin
Illini_152 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1000 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 25510 times:
Just about any turbo-ed engine will be higher maintinance and have a shorter TBO than it's normally asperated counterpart. 'Tis the nature of the beast. More moving parts and higher compression ratios both will increase wear and tear on any engine mounted in any airframe.
Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 25474 times:
In actual fact, turbosupercharged TCM engines are of a LOWER compression ratio than their normally asperated counterparts....and always have been.
Having said this, they DO run significantly hotter, and this, in the end, effects the overall life of the powerplant.
Jetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 25471 times:
Illini 152 has it correct, there is higher maintenance associated with the turbo verses the normally aspirated engine. The real question is do you need the turbo? It the airplane operated out of high density altitude airports or do you really need the high altitude capability that the turbo provides? If so, then you simply bite the bullet and budget for the higher maintenance costs.
There are things that you can get to help cut the maintenance costs - aftermarket intercoolers and GAMI injectors can really cut down the heat. (IF YOU OPERATE THE ENGINE CORRECTLY!) The question is, do you operate the airplane enough to make these mods cost effective?
I've got quite a bit of time in all models of the 210. I especially liked the P-210. The one I flew had the intercooler and speedbrakes. We never had any problems with it, but we operated the engine properly. They are great airplanes. It's too bad Cessna isn't planning to reintroduce them.
Liamksa From Australia, joined Oct 2001, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 25390 times:
Speedbrakes. Wow. I didn't know such a thing existed (so i'm going to have to reel off a few questions ). Were they an aftermarket mod? What are your thoughts on them Jetguy, did they "expedite those descents"? Were they the same as the ones below? And last one, how were they activated?
Jetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 25359 times:
Yes they were an aftermarket mod. Their main advantage in the P-210 was they allowed us to descend with the power up which made it easier to keep the cabin pressurized. Yes they were very effective. I think that the only ones still available for 200 series Cessnas are the electrically operated Precise Flight units like the one in your post. I really don't know if I would bother installing them on a straight or turbo 210, but I think they would be a highly desirable mod on the P models.
Boeing nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 25323 times:
They are great airplanes. It's too bad Cessna isn't planning to reintroduce them.
Indeed. I think they'ed have a great seller if it came with the new Garmin G1000 along with the 182.
Another question for you guys in the know. Is/would a supercharger be more compatible? Or is it pretty much the same thing?
If your wondering, it's just out of curiousity. Other than speed, the only advantage I could see for having a turbo is the family has property in the mountains of Colorado, and there is an airport there at nearly 9'000' ASL. It's also a dream to be able to own one.
Jetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 25309 times:
"...Is/would a supercharger be more compatible? Or is it pretty much the same thing?
A turbocharger and supercharger are pretty much the same thing. The proper name for a turbocharger is a turbosupercharger. The primary difference is that a supercharger is (in most aircraft installations) gear driven and a turbosupercharger is exhaust driven. For simplicity, it's pretty hard to beat a turbo.
"...Other than speed, the only advantage I could see for having a turbo is the family has property in the mountains of Colorado, and there is an airport there at nearly 9'000' ASL..."
As I wrote in my earlier post, there are basically two reasons (well, maybe three) where a turbo is economically justified. "The real question is do you need the turbo? Is the airplane operated out of high density altitude airports or do you really need the high altitude capability that the turbo provides?" Those are the big two reasons, the other reason is power related - some designs, for whatever the reasons, need the power that you can presently only obtain from turbocharged engines or turbines. If the designer / builders elects to go with pistons and the power is needed, well, that's the other time they're justified.
You mentioned speed. That's correct, typically, at altitude they are faster. The reason for that is that turbocharged aircraft are able to maintain a higher percentage of their rated power at higher altitudes. Typically a normally aspirated aircraft engine loses about 2% of its power for every 1,000 feet it is above sea level. Additionally, your true airspeed increased about 2% for every 1,000 feet above sea level as well. That, of course, is a good thing; but with a normally aspirated engine it doesn't take long to run out of power in a climb.
Again, loss of power is the primary culprit. Normally aspirated aircraft lose power with altitude. An aircraft's climb ability is directly proportional to the amount of "excess" power that it has available vs. what is needed to maintain level flight. For example, if a 200 HP normally aspirated airplane requires 100 HP to maintain level flight it would (at SL, ISA day) has 100 "excess" HP to use for climb. At 10,000' MSL, the engine might only be able to produce 160 HP, leaving it with a 60 HP surplus. This is the reason why turbocharged aircraft perform so well - you are able to maintain SL power up until you reached the "critical altitude" for your particular installation. In some cases this is as high as 18,000' MSL. This performance comes at a price - Heat, and heat is the primary culprit for the higher maintenance bills.
(Note: This is also why light twins typically perform so poorly on one engine. Take, as an example, a Twin Comanche with two 160 HP engines. If that airplane required, say, 150 HP to maintain level flight it would have 170 "excess" HP to climb with. If it lost an engine, it would have lost 50% of its available power, but with just 10 "excess" HP, it may have lost 95% of its ability to climb. Light twins have two engines because they need two engines, not because it's cool!)
One final comment, turbocharged airplanes have a speed advantage at altitude - not necessarily down low. The equipment that give them their power advantage at altitude increases backpressure and adds weight. For most, otherwise comparable aircraft, the point where having turbos really "kick in" is around 10,000 feet. A case in point was the Baron 56TC that I used flew for a mining company 25 years ago. That airplane was a beast, it was basically a flying test bed for the 380 hp engines that Beech installed on the Duke. Originally, the Beech Travelair / Baron airframe was certified with 180 hp engines. The 56TC had 380 hp on each wing! It was the closest thing that you'll ever come to flying a jet with pistons. However, below 8,000 feet the lowly 260 hp B55 Baron would out run it. (At altitude, it was a different beast entirely - I used to be mistaken for King Airs all of the time.) The same thing applies to the Mooney 201 and 231, and just about any other pair of similiar aircraft that I can think of.
ThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1703 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 25235 times:
I've got lots of time in all versions of the C210; in fact, I flew the very first one in 1960 (almost had a gear up landing as the notoriously fickle gear locking mechanism on the early 210s did its thing.)
There are some slight differences in piloting technique between the straight 210 and the turbo but nothing that the POH and a good instructor can't teach you. The thing that a lot of people miss is to advance the throttle about halfway on takeoff, wait a short beat, and then go to full power. That gives the turbo a chance to spool up more slowly. Heat is a biggie on the 210 and even more so for the 210T; and don't forget the lack of heat either that comes from those screaming high-rate descents that shock cool the engine.
One big advantage to the higher climb rate for the T210 is that the higher you go the more likely ATC is to give you that sweet "cleared XYZ direct." At least that seemed to be true where I did most of my T210 flying.
Maintenance is a big issue with 210s of all types and even more so for the T210 and P210. The blower causes higher stresses on the engine and is an additional maintenance item in itself.
And, Jetguy, I simultaneously got checked out in the P210 and got an endorsement to drive 18-wheelers along with it. HAHAHAHA!