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Pilots & ATC.. Again?  
User currently offlineSolarWind From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 66 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2750 times:

Hey..long time viewer..1st time poster...Loooong.. time in the Industry. Great Forum.... Sorry if this has been on reciently....Ive seen alot concerning ATC getting pissed off at Flight Crews...when they don't do as they are told ....But what about the Reverse..Ever hear a Crew go after an ATC...I remember several years ago coming from DFW to EWR on an AA D10..On final to EWR...Pilot told to Go around...Traffic on runway.. so.. Go around ..and on 2nd final..guess what...Go around again..,.Traffic on runway...on 3rd final.. ATC...." AA # heavy..exc.several S's ... Departing Traffic " ..Pilot says " IF YOU DO IT TO US AGAIN.. Im going to my Alt...(which . was YYZ) and I'm not only reporting your incompetence to FAA.... I'm meeting you in the Parking lot when I get Back!!!"

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4489 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2701 times:

I feel very strongly about this...

I hear it all the time, but it's NOT good.

The airwaves are NO PLACE to bitch and show disapproval, regardless of which end it comes from. That's what phones are for. Nothing is so important that it has to take place right then and there. Such "bitching out" via radio is unprofessional in the best of times, and really unsafe in the worst of times. If you feel you have to get the last word, do it later. You'll be a lot less stressed and definitely less angry by then.



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineDragogoalie From Australia, joined Oct 2001, 1220 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2562 times:

I've heard it happen once. I was doing a training flight for my instrument rating and we were getting vectors for the ILS at GFK. The Fedex 727 was coming in on the ILS and was told that there was a Cessna in front of them. The Fedex 727 was then given holding instructions to which he responded with 'well that's real professional of you'. He thought he was being told to hold because there was a cessna in front of him, but in actuallity he was told to hold because the cessna in front of him blew a tire and was disabled on the only runway large enough to handle the 727. The controller quickly came back at the pilot in a less than happy tone telling the pilot why he was being told to hold. The pilot then fumbled his holding instructions 2 or 3 times and just had a bitchy tone the whole time. It was extremely unprofessional. I can understand a bit of his frustration, but the controller had nothing to do with this. My instructor joked about going on the frequency after he fumbled his instructions and asking "so what kind of entry to the holding pattern are you going to do?" It actually seemed like the guy didn't know what was going on.


Formerly known as Jap. Srsly. AUSTRALIA: 2 days!
User currently offlineSocalatc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 527 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2468 times:

Sometimes some of the baby's out there don't get their way, weather its not letting them land on the runway they want and they have to taxi longer than normal, or they are put on speed restriction, and just small stuff like that. Its very easy to get a pilot scared, all you have to do when they get on the ground is "sir, when you park the aircraft, I have a number for you to call" That usually shuts them right up... One pilot started yelling at me a few months ago because he didn't feel that he had enough separation between him and an 733. He actually swore on the radio, so I called down stairs and actually got him ramp checked.. I don't think he was very happy about that, turns out he didn't have a current medical. Woops  Smile-

User currently offlinePhilsquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2463 times:

Well, I see this has degenerated into a name calling thread very quickly. I reference reply 3 and the use of baby's (grammatically incorrect), what is the point of making a reference to all pilots as babies? I suppose I could say that all widget (no reference to Delta) makers are spoiled brats. It serves no purpose and the more I read this forum the more amazed I am at some people's perceptions.

Can I get my money back?


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4195 posts, RR: 37
Reply 5, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2460 times:

Only time ive ever gotten a tad snappy with ATC is one controller in TLH has a reputation for not being the sharpest knife in the drawer. We were doing touch and goes on 36, and he was about to fire a DL mad dog off of 27, which goes straight through our downwind with their climb profile. He sequenced their takeoff clearance perfectly for a midair with us on downwind. They started the roll... i called "Hey tower, you want us to run into that MD-88 that you cleared for takeoff or us to do a 360- I'd personally to like to start a 360..." Much stuttering followed along with 360 approved.


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineSocalatc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 527 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2443 times:

Just to clarify, I was a pilot before an Controller. I do not think ALL! Pilots are BABY'S.. But there are a few that are VERY cranky and get upset when things don't go their way. In this one particular case, this pilot was a BIG BABY.. We ( controllers) have a VERY stressful job and sometimes you pilots don't make our job easy at all. But for the most part all of you are great!

User currently offlineUbidenmark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2443 times:

At LHR I have never heard anything other than courteous, professional exchanges. Even when instructions have had to be repeated. Crew requests for weather avoiding heading deviation is invariably granted politely, even when it must clearly add to ATC's workload.

I do not want to start a my ATC's better than your ATC debate. I only have experience of scanning at LHR.


User currently offlinePhilsquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2431 times:

Please don't interpret my comments as saying you don't have a very stressful job. However, resulting to name calling and generalities, such as reply 3, and if you re-read it you will see it very clearly that you made a broad sweeping generality.

Your comments about pilots not making your job any easier, swings both ways. I have had controllers who certainly didn't make my job any easier either. But, that's life, you get over it, there is always tomorrow. For every surly controller there are thousands that make it a pleasure for me to come to work (if you want to call it that) and allow me to do what I truly love.





User currently offlineAmeriCam From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 29 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2403 times:

Socalatc... What do you mean by not all pilots are babies? Of course we are... you guys treat us like we are!

[Edited 2004-04-20 23:07:48]


"If you're going to crash, make it a fiery one."
User currently offlineSocalatc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 527 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2386 times:

We call it like we see it (or hear it) If there is reason for us to treat you like baby's then we will, if there is not then at least myself I am more than nice and will almost always try and accommodate as well as I can. And I will admit when I was flying I ran into some very cranky mean controllers, but what are you going to do? For the most part I think we all get along just fine and 80% of the time everyone is as happy as can be.

User currently offlineMr Spaceman From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 2787 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2376 times:

Hi guys.

Here in Toronto, on the ATC channel that handles the traffic for all the satelite airports around Toronto Intl Airport (YYZ), as well as GA flights that are just transiting through the area, there's a controller I listen to every day, and I mean "every" day (I don't know when this man takes a day off. He's at work 7 days a week!), and I've only heard him get stern with a pilot once over the past year. After trying to contact a pilot for about ten minutes, he warned him that his flight following would be cancelled if he didn't do a better job of listening for his call sign.

This controller has put up with some pretty funny characters that are doing some strange stuff, and he always keeps his cool. It's a pleasure to listen to him work.

Chris  Smile



"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4489 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2378 times:

We ( controllers) have a VERY stressful job and sometimes you pilots don't make our job easy at all.

Right back at ya. One controller a few weeks ago put me on a crash course with a Comair CRJ...think he realized his mistake (he sounded rather humbled after I told him I was doing a 360 for separation) so I didn't make a deal out of it later.

As for that argument, you must remember...flying and ATC are both equally stressful jobs that require constant attention and cross-checking (i.e., everyone on both sides making sure the jobs get done). No need for either side to get high-and-mighty about their particular job. We're all working together. Let's remember that!!

Maintain visual separation,
JBirdAV8r



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineMr Spaceman From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 2787 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2363 times:

Hi guys.

Here's a funny thing I heard when the controller I mentioned above was on the job.

A while back, a GA pilot checked in with him at 4 thousand feet and asked for Flight Following. The pilot was given a squawk code and told to descend to 3 thousand feet. After about 5 minutes had passed, the controller asked the pilot what altitude he was flying at? The pilot replied with a stumble that he was at 3 thousand feet. The controller then told him that he was being shown on radar as being at 4 thousand, explained to him that he needed him to descend because he was getting to close to an active approach corridor for Toronto Intl Airport and gave him the current altimeter setting. The pilot still insisted that he was at 3 thousand. So the controller kindly asked him to recycle his transponder and mentioned that maybe it's Mode C wasn't warmed up enough yet. The pilot said he would do so. Then about 4 minutes later the controller asked the pilot again what his altitude was? The pilot said he was at 3 thousand. The controller asked if there was a problem with his transponder? The pilot stated that he didn't know for sure and that he did fiddle with it a bit.

The controller then said in a very cool & calm voice ................

"OK, I'm glad you're at three thousand feet now, I just watched you descend at seventeen hundred feet per minute. Please confirm that you are level at three thousand."

The pilot replied in a humble voice that he was level at 3 thousand feet, and the controller Thanked him and asked him to maintain his coarse.

Hehehe, the pilot was caught lying. I guess he wasn't aware that ATC radar shows rate of climb & descent. Big grin



Chris  Smile

[Edited 2004-04-21 00:56:53]

[Edited 2004-04-21 01:01:18]


"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3527 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2349 times:

ATC are usually pretty nice, unless you're flying into Chicago Class B VFR in September at 5pm on a sunday...haha.

"Chicago center cessna 95382 permission to enter Chicago Class Bravo Airspace we'll be coming up on it in about One-Zero Minutes"

"Cessna calling Chicago Center get off my frequency"

ouch. But it's okay...we dropped under 2500 and skirted under...we heard him rip into some other en route cessna who didn't understand that Sky-Dive chicago let their jumpers out from 13,000 feet...

"Cessna whatever you're right below where sky dive chicago operates right about now"
"Chicago center cessna ..... well we should be okay we're at 5500"
"Cessna ..... they operate at FL130"
"ohh....well .....vectors?"

haha. too funny. chicago approach control rules



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineDragogoalie From Australia, joined Oct 2001, 1220 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2349 times:

When one group or the other begins to look at the other as 'babies' or what not, stuff just isn't going to get done. You might as well quit now Socalatc. If you think that we're out there to make your life miserable then I think you should find another job. There are douchebags on both side of the radio. As somebody stated above, we are working together. If you dont see that and think that every request is a burden on you, then I dont want to fly accross your airspace. Without us, you have no job, and without you guys a good number of us would probably unintentionally combine our aircraft with another one. Most of us understand that your job is stressful, but all of us would like to at least get some respect in return. Yeah, your job is stressfull...but ours is too.

BTW, I have a new policy that the FAA should put into place to promote working together. If the pilot screws up ant ATC catches it and points it out, then the pilot has to buy the controller a beer. If the controller messes up and the pilot catches it, the controler buys the pilot a beer? Sounds fair to me  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

--dragogoalie-#88--



Formerly known as Jap. Srsly. AUSTRALIA: 2 days!
User currently offlineBellerophon From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 583 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2352 times:

Please don't let the Tech/Ops forum degenerate to the level of the Civil Aviation forum by posting any more pointless threads like this one.

As for anecdotes like:

...The controller then said.......I just watched you descend at seventeen thousand feet per minute.....

Somehow, I don't think so.

Some of the comments in posts made by Socalatc

...Sometimes some of the baby's out there don't get their way...
...Its very easy to get a pilot scared...
...so I called down stairs and actually got him ramp checked

are as juvenile as they are untypical, and one comment stands out as being positively stupid.

...If there is reason for us to treat you like baby's then we will...

Well he might, but most of his colleagues will take pride in still doing their best professional job, even when provoked or under stress. You decide which attitude you think creates a safer ATC environment and you decide which you think is the more professional approach.

For those of you who genuinely want to know how it is, JBirdAV8r and Philsquares have summed it up very nicely from the professional pilots' point of view. Most have a healthy respect for ATC controllers and the job they do, and generally that respect is reciprocated by ATC.

Regards

Bellerophon


User currently offlineSupraZachAir From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Feb 2004, 634 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2312 times:

Why's everyone being so thin skinned? I'm a pilot and i wasn't offended by anything. You guys need to relax a little. Its a civil conversation, not a bickering match.  Smile

User currently offlineBaw2198 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 637 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2311 times:

We (controllers) are generally very accommodating to pilots. I would even go as far to say as to about 95% of the time we are very cordial. There is a lot of patience required in this job especially if you work at a smaller approach control working with students day in and day out.

As far as pilots and being babies, I would not call it that. Everybody on both sides of the fence has bad days, just chalk it up to that.

Cheers
Baw2198



"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6598 posts, RR: 55
Reply 19, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2318 times:

I think in this industry, controllers do not get the recognition they deserve. Flying into HKG on a busy afternoon and just listening to ATC talking non-stop, making no mistakes, not missing a beat is just great. We have TCAS and can see what ATC is doing to us (obviously) and everyone else around us, and sometimes it is a work of art.

Unfortunately, just like how there are grumpy old pilots who also fly badly, there are ATC guys who lose their temper a lot. You need a lot of patience with some of the Asian carriers, with their broken english and zero exposure to busy airspace and lack of spatial awareness. They may slow to 180kts at 40 miles out, or hang around on the runway when there is traffic 4 miles behind them. We have a couple of controllers in HKG who lose their tempers very quickly at any Asian carrier, but for the best part of them, they are very good and deserve a "good job - switching to tower" sometimes.


User currently offlineSupraZachAir From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Feb 2004, 634 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2301 times:

It should also be noted that when a controller is being "less than stellar" every pilot listening can tell, and at the same token when a pilot is being "troublesome" everyone listening can tell as well. Two flights from my school came back from practicing approaches at a local towered airport and the first thing they said to eachother was, "Man that ATC lady was not in a good mood today." Similarly when i was doing a x-country a month ago a controller was trying to offer vectors around a couple TFR's to some guy in a Cessna and the guy obviously was clueless and would not listen (eventually he descended to where his flight following was cancelled). Soon as i got back another student and instructor asked if I had heard the idiot in the Cessna. There's no blame to be placed, cause its clear when its happening who's having the bad day.

User currently offlineDeltajax From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2280 times:

No reason to get worked up about it, like SupraZachAir said. A contoller actually taught me a lesson the other night. It was my first flight doing instrument approaches, it was at night and I had a high workload as my instructor looked on. The contoller was vectoring me to the approach course for JAX rwy 7, but I did not hear his last instruction among all the checklists and stuff i was doing, so I asked for a repeat and he said "nevermind, proceed on current heading"- apparently so he could get some jets in- so I ended up over the ocean before he came back to me, my instructor said that was called the penalty box.

User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2686 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2280 times:

I think that EWR/LGA/JFK would probably take the cake for most complex airspace. If you listen to ATC with a scanner, it is insane. I give a great deal of credit to the CO pilots that fly into EWR on a regular basis. An extremely busy airport with two close parallel runways can be a recipe for great congestion, and the controllers lose their cool every once in a while.

User currently offlineSocalatc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 527 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2249 times:

You know what Bellerophon, I took GREAT pride in getting a pilot out of the sky that didn't have a current medical. I don't know how you do things over there in the UK but here things like that don't fly.

Dragogoalie,
I think your idea is great, whenever you come into my area let be sure to set that up.

I hope you guys don't think I think all pilots are baby's because I don't. I am still a pilot, I love to fly. And for the most part all pilots that I talk to through out the day I have no problems. However if there is a problem it is my job to let that pilot know what he did wrong, or what he could have done to make what he did better.


User currently offlineBMAbound From Sweden, joined Nov 2003, 660 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2181 times:

99 % of the controllers I've talked to are just plain great. Flying my first solo in Class D airspace, tower took great care of me and even asked if I wanted to stay in the pattern since I had forgotten to ask that during the initial call-up. On another occasion (not in the US this time), I lost my only radio right above an entry point for a control zone after I had requested vectors for landing. I did a 180 and finally got the thing going again. On the 2nd call, I reported the incidence and asked him to repeat the instructions. He didn't sound bothered at all and told me to just fly base for the active runway instead of proceeding to a mandatory landmark that are occasionally used for VFR holding. I guess he was keen on getting me down fast...  Big thumbs up

johan



Altitude is Insurance - Get Insured
25 Coa764 : BTW, I have a new policy that the FAA should put into place to promote working together. If the pilot screws up ant ATC catches it and points it out,
26 Sccutler : We in the DFW area are blessed with some of the best controllers around. A real treat to deal with!
27 Socalatc : You are correct sir, DFW does have some amazing controllers.. I think they are right up there with the SOCAL TRACON guys..
28 Dragogoalie : I gotta give credit to the guys down in MSP. I'm sure SOCAL and DFW are much worse, but this past weekend I flew my first IFR cross country and I went
29 Post contains images Socalatc : Naw.. We just make good alcoholics Just kidding!
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