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What Is A "water Burner"  
User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9542 times:

In the photo section there is a picture of a heavy smoking 707 and it's called a water burner. Is that just an expression or is water used in some way for coolant?

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9483 times:

Some older aircraft engines injected water into the compressed airflow to increase the flow mass therein, which provided more thrust for takeoff.





[Edited 2004-04-23 22:04:13]

User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9459 times:

Thank you for your help.


User currently offlineElwood64151 From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 2477 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9416 times:

You'll see these aircraft referred to as "Water Wagons," as well.


Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
User currently offlineLVZXV From Gabon, joined Mar 2004, 2041 posts, RR: 37
Reply 4, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9392 times:



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Charlie Atterbury



Does this answer your question?!

XV




How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9345 times:

Thrust levels on early jets was very poor. There were certain times that these original jets simply didn't have enough thrust to take off fully loaded on certain runways at certain times.

As I understand it, water injection "fooled" the engine into thinking it was receiving more air, and therefore would provide more thrust. However, as you can see in that picture, the results were an environmental nightmare!!

As engine technology came about, more than sufficient power was able to be provided for virtually every situation, so water injection became unnecessary. I am sure Mother Earth is happy about that one!!



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9322 times:

You would think that adding water would make steam instead of smoke. That picture is unreal. I bet they were loud too.

User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 9279 times:

You would think that adding water would make steam instead of smoke.

...it does.

The increased volume of smoke you see is (among other factors) a direct result of the increased mass [to the thrust flow] that the injected water provides






[Edited 2004-04-23 22:02:02]

User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 9184 times:

It isn't pure water either. It's water mixed with ammonia (NH3).

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineCalpilot17 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 9186 times:

Does it really hurt the environment more or does it only appear so because of the increase in volume of the exhaust.


Gear Down For max career Advancment
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9016 times:

Actually...
BA is completely WRONG about the ammonia (NH3).
These aircraft (which I operted as a Captain) used de-mineralized water ONLY...nothing else...except jet fuel, of course.

Now, having said this...no telling just what they got up to in Lebanon Insane

Some have a few very strange ideas and/or mis-information.


User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3079 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8909 times:

I know that the HS748 uses a water methanol mixture. I personally do know about ammonia but I suspect that 411A is right.

Greasespot



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlinePr1268 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8877 times:

Just curious: For what duration of time was the a/c capable of injecting water into the engines? How long did the crew usually keep injecting water after t/o?


The only time an aircraft has too much fuel is when it is on fire.
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8770 times:

Pr1268,
The water, which was contained in tanks in the wing fillet area, flowed for approximately 2 and one half minutes, and the tank(s) capacity was totally used up during this period.
This allowed the aircraft to reach flap retraction height, and complete flap retraction...usually.


User currently offlineJustplanesmart From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 722 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8713 times:

I bet they were loud too.

Yes, they were.



"So many planes; so little time..."
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8657 times:

Actually...
BA is completely WRONG about the ammonia (NH3).
These aircraft (which I operted as a Captain) used de-mineralized water ONLY...nothing else...except jet fuel, of course


Wrong again. Its a water-methanol mixture. This keeps the contents of the tanks from freezing solid at altitude.

Evironmental nightmare? I don't think "mother earth" minds some water vapour ejecting from the engine. I'd say she is more concerned about the tons of jet fuel....


User currently offlineMr Spaceman From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 2787 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8644 times:

Hi guys.

> 411A stated that he used to fly these aircraft (Boeing707's) as a Captain, so when he says they used demineralized water ONLY and nothing else, Im sure he knows what he's talking about.

Here's a neat photo of a B-52 Bomber being loaded up with DEMINERALIZED WATER back in 1985. Look at the red label on the back of the tanker truck.

The original Boeing 707's had four JT3D turbofans, and a B-52 has eight TF-33-P-3/103 engines. I don't know how similar these engines are, but they are both built by Pratt & Whitney.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Den Pascoe



PS, Welcome aboard Greasespot. Big grin


Chris  Smile



"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
User currently offlineMr Spaceman From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 2787 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8637 times:

Hi guys.

I just did a google search and found out that a B-52's eight PW TF-33 engines produce 17,000 pounds of thrust each which is the same amount of thrust produced by the four PW JT3D-1 engines on the Boeing 707-120B.

So perhaps the Boeing-707 and the Boeing B-52 engines are quite similar.


Chris  Smile



"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
User currently offlineChdmcmanus From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 374 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8639 times:

The TF-33 is the mil version of the JT3-D, Just as the J-57 was the JT3.

As for water injection, please see;

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/80343/6/
or
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/35649/6/
or
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/30495/6/
or
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/17911/6/
or
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/17879/6/
or
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/11576/6/
or
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/8554/6/
or
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/2788/

Some very good info in these posts, but be careful, there were different mixtures and methods depending on location and manufacture, which seems to cause a lot of consternation in these threads.

Hope it helps

ChD






[Edited 2004-04-24 18:11:37]


"Never trust a clean Crew Chief"
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8615 times:

411A stated that he used to fly these aircraft (Boeing707's) as a Captain, so when he says they used demineralized water ONLY and nothing else, Im sure he knows what he's talking about.

Yah...you would think so. But don't be so quick to take a pilot's word for techical matters over people who actually filled the tanks....

You have to remember that there is often no single answer for technical questions, and procedures tend to evolve over time.

[Edited 2004-04-24 19:25:33]

User currently offlineMr Spaceman From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 2787 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8602 times:

Hi guys.

>> Chdmcmanus, Thanks for explaining that the P&W TF-33 is the military version of the P&W JT3D.

>> Airplay, I understand what you're saying about how there's often not a single answer to technical questions. I agree. Big grin

One of the first replys about water injection in the threads linked above is by Musang (who is an airline Captain), and he explains that a water/methanol mixture is used and is referred to as Water Meth, which has anti-icing qualities and is effectively more fuel.

PS, Airplay, How's the weather today in Winnipeg? I used to live in Polo Park on a street called Ashburn just South of Sergent Ave. I could walk to Blue Bomber Stadium in about 15 minutes. Big grin


Chris  Smile



"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8548 times:

Airplay being just slightly mis-informed about the de-mineralized water used in early models of the B707.
Methanol was never required as, indicated previously, the water was totally exhausted from the tanks during each takeoff, hence it did not need methanol to keep from freezing at altitude.
Other jet aircraft were different...but not the 707.

There are those that can suppose (because they never have been there) and then there are those that HAVE been there...and done that.
Factual information generally comes from the latter group.


User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8499 times:

Gee, sorry 411A. I didn't realize that you flew every 707 in the world for every airline. Sorry to question a pilot "god". Been there? Sounds like you've been "everywhere"....

Water methanol was in fact used in 707s. Not all, and apparently not the ones 411A flew. If I remember correctly, Boeing had to write a service bulletin to allow the practice which included increased inspections to address the increased incidence of corrosion associated with the water methanol mixture.

I don't have the 707 manuals here at home, but I'll try to hunt some proof down on monday at work. I'll really have to blow the dust off those 707 fiche reels...

 Smile

I do concede I was wrong in implying that water-methanol was the primary substance used. It appears that pure demineralized water was the default. It just goes to show you that there is rarely one single answer for any question about airplanes...


User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6822 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8463 times:

"Water methanol was in fact used in 707s. Not all..."

Which?


User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8441 times:

These early 707's with JT3C engines that used de-mineralized water for thrust augmentation were operated along side DC6's and Convair 440's that used ADI.
The service bulletin was initiated so that the 707 aircraft could be operated with ADI if no demineralized water was available or, had been incorrectly filled with ADI fluid...ground crews being what they usually are...inattentive.
Usually, the 707 aircraft that used ADI instead of de-mineralized water required a compressor wash at the minimum, as the compressor blades were subject to severe corrosion IF a water/methanol mix was used.

READ the manual...when all else fails.
Something most folks fail to do...until its too late.


25 Airplay : Ah...the wonderful world of aviation. Ask one question get 40 answers and the truth lies somewhere in between! One last comment though. I don't think
26 TimT : All that smoke!! There was a service bulletin from P&W to install a set of new and improved burner cans- the new cans were more efficient and created
27 411A : The water did not directly make the exhaust 'cooler'. The water injection (thrust augmentation) increased the mass flow thru the engine, so that addit
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