Lehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 22 Posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2434 times:
This is what I'm thinking: Every plane gets filled b4 flight and then extra is added in case the landing is delayed. After landing, it gets serviced and filled up again. BUT, I figure that no airliner, at least, has flown on dry tanks. I hope you know where I'm going with this. It's like if you fill a barrel with oil or water but the suction hose only goes so far down and at a point of 'empty', there is still stuff down there by the time it is refilled.
What I want to know is what happens to that stuff that doesn't get used right off the bat, or does it decay or does its potency go down?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
Mender From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 224 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2370 times:
It gets mixed with the fresh fuel. That's it.
If you pour some rum in a glass the add some coke you can never drink the neat rum.
If you put a really thick green liquid in a glass, then, really carefully pour another really thick red substance on top of it the two will don't mix.
Now stir them with a spoon clockwise one full circle. Now stir it back anti clockwise one fully circle. You will never fully "un-mix" the two substances. I believe it's called the chaos theory.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2368 times:
What you are talking about is highly theoretical, that there might be a molecule of jet fuel that grows old in the tank. Consider the reality.
When the plane is serviced there may be five to twenty thousand pounds or even more remaining in the tanks, depending on which type aircraft we are talking about and some other variables. The fuel remaining is normally cold soaked to well below the freezing point of water. The fuel being added is tankfarm temperature. Presumable they will not mix until the temperatures come together. I think this is called "affinity" in chemistry.
Eventually the old and new fuel will mix. After all, it is being agitated constantly once the plane starts moving. The notion that some fuel will never take its turn down the pipe and somehow "age" is just not worth considering.
Here is a concern! When you drain fuel from a tank, it is replaced by air. Fuel down, air up, fuel up, air down. The airspace above the fuel in the tank increases and decreases. Seen another way, the tank is breathing. Now all air has some moisture content. Even in LAS or PHX there is some humidity. What happens to all that water that is drawn into the tanks?
You can be sure that some very smart people have addressed both our questions.
Yours is a little like the question that goes: If electricity is the flow of electrons, why does electric wire age since the matter within it is being constantly replaced?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
CitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2229 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2334 times:
There are two categories of fuel that cannot be used:
1. Trapped fuel (unuseabale & undrainable fuel)
2. Unuseable, drainable fuel
Trapped fuel cannot be removed (drained) from the airplane without disassembly of the aircraft.
Unuseable fuel cannot be used by the engine, but can be drained from the low points in the fuel system.
Item 1 is usually a smaller quantity than item 2.
Mender From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 224 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2325 times:
Water does build up in fuel tanks. Every airplane from a Cessna 150 to a 747 has water drains in the lowest point of the fuel tank for this reason.
Boeing actually go one better than Cessna though.
They BURN the water in the engines. They fit "auto sumping jet pumps" in the bottom of the fuel tanks which suck up the water and feed it to the engines together with fuel. This prevents large accumulations of water forming in the tank in the first place.
Lehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 22 Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2295 times:
Jet engines take in water when it rains, it doesn't burn it per se, just knows how to deal with it. Still though, that stuff they never gets drained, I suppose, does it erode or decay at all? Or is it like a stray whirlpool in a stream, it's just there.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2294 times:
I think your question has been answered. The old gets mixed with the new. There is no pocket of old fuel anywhere.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
AUAE From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 296 posts, RR: 4 Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2290 times:
The C-5 and L1011 are excellent examples of a very effiecient fuel pick up system. Aside from the boost pump, both planes have tubes that reach into the lowest parts of the tank to draw up fuel. You could litterally run the tanks dry on those aircraft.
Boeing is not as intricate, but the amount of trapped fuel and unusable is very very small.
As far as this being any type of concern, I agree with all the above posts. The fuel mixes enough that you really don't get "old fuel". Water also just gets fed right into the engine. And at 50 psi or so, water isn't going to freeze in the pipes.
The only thing you really worry about in a tank is debris (paint flakes, old sealant) and fungus. I think all fuel is treated now, so the fungi problems are very very rare these days.
Shawn
Air transport is just a glorified bus operation. -Michael O'Leary, Ryanair's chief executive
Aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8355 posts, RR: 47 Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2260 times:
What exactly is "trapped fuel"?
I imagine that it is fuel that found its way to a place somewhere in the tanks where the fuel pick up system cannot pick it up. Is that anywhere near correct?
And what happens when one or all of the tanks have to be drained for an inspection? Is the trapped fuel simply left to evaporate or what to mx people do?
Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
Air2gxs From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2209 times:
Trapped fuel is indeed fuel that is in an area of a tank that, due to design of the tank, rarely if ever leave that area. Consider a stream or pool of water with an isolated area. That area typically harbors growth (moss, fungus, etc.) because there is little or no movement of the water.
The same thing occurs in fuel tanks. There are certain strains of bacteria that thrive on hydro-carbons. Normally they do not present a problem, because fuel in a tank is not static, it is constantly moving and mixed, except where the trapped fuel is and in the sumps if maintenance has not been doing there job.
If allowed to thrive, this bacteria will start to cause fuel quantity problems because it will eventual propagate to the probes. We try to prevent this problem by sending off fuel samples at regular intervals and by treating the tank with a product called Bio-bor or some similar name.
So, manufacturers try their best to limit the areas in a tank in which fuel can be trapped and maintenance programs are designed to sump tanks at regualr intervals to limit this growth. Don't be mistaken though, sumpings primary function is to clear water from the tank.
VC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3677 posts, RR: 37 Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2182 times:
What nobody seems to have mentioned is that the fuel boost pumps are located at the lowest part of the tank so they are always taking what fuel ever is in that part of the tank so there shouls be no 'old' fuel around.
FDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 38 Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2175 times:
Lehpron
A good example of what you're talking about is the outboard tanks on the A300-600.
These tanks are sequenced to burn fuel last to keep weight in the wingtips. They hold about 8,600 lbs each.
But the the fuel in these tanks are indeed trapped. Often times they can remain full or nearly so indefinately. There is no water scavenge system to speak of.
Because of this potential stagnant pool, it's part of our service check to pump the outer tanks dry. We transfer the fuel into the inner tanks which are nearly always burned low.
Then when the airplane is fueled, ther outers get fresh, new fuel.
CitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2229 posts, RR: 3 Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2164 times:
Unusable Fuel definition:
Fuel remaining after a fuel runout test has been completed in accordance with governmental regulations.
Trapped Fuel definition
Fuel which is not capable of being drained from the aircraft after a fuel runout test has been completed in accordance with governmental regulations.
From the above definitions, it appears that trapped is included in unusable fuel.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13334 posts, RR: 64 Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2104 times:
Lehpron,
Having spent several weeks ongoing in fuel tanks I´d like to state the following:
If you´ve got to enter a tank for an inspection or other maintenance, at first you pump all fuel out which can be picked up by the boost pumps. Then you attach an adapter with a hose at the drain valve at the lowest point of the tank and let the rest drain out (usualy a few hundred liters).
Afterwards you´ll open two fuel tank access panels, if possible the two most distant from each other and connect two big hoses, one attached to a suction pump (usualy an air injector pump, no electrics due to the danger of an explosion) and the other one leading fresh air in. After about a day you´ll check the gas concentration with an explosimeter. If it is ok, you can enter the tank. You´ll be wearing some cotton coveralls without pockets or metal zippers, and special tank socks, no shoes. You´ll be wearing a respirator as well. You crawl into the tank and mop up all the leftover fuel (usualy about one or two buckets full). Then you start with your work. You´ll use explosion proof lights and keep your tools in a plastic tray, as not to damage the fuel tank coating. Electric tools are a big NO NO. Another guy will stand at the access hole, fully dressed with a resprator to help you in case you faint. Many tanks are nothing for people with claustrophobia (speaking about the wing root of a 737 or a 727!), other tanks a big enough to have a party inside (747 center). This is what the book says.
At LH in the hangar the sheeties had to mark cutting areas on the surface of the wings, where to cut causing the least damage in case somebody collapsed inside. We also always had a tank rescue trolley with air cutting tools, respirators and advanced first aid equipment, like an oxygen cylinder beside the plane. In other companies I worked for, you were lucky if some colleague stuck his head into the hole every few hours and asked you if you were still alive! I was working in a 737 wing root, changing the check valves on the boost pumps, I didn´t like the respirator with the air line in this tight space ansd I caught myself singing dirty songs in German rather loudly, I was like drunk!
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13334 posts, RR: 64 Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2099 times:
Another thing: When you get out of the tank after a day´s work you´ve got a smell of fuel stuck to you which even taking a shower three times won´t kill. When I first came back home like this, my ex asked me to sleep on the sofa instead of the bed.
DC-10Tech From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 298 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2086 times:
I hear that Jan, you just can't get that smell out of your clothes, and anything you wash with those clothes comes out smelling like fuel!
I used to have a laundry quarantine for fuel and skydrol soaked clothes.
My last adventure where I spent serious time in a tank was rewiring the Lo Z to the #4 aux on a 747-100... one of the most unpleasant jobs I've ever done.
Pilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3082 posts, RR: 12 Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2072 times:
That lovely smell is the reason that I keep all of my work clothes separate from my street clothes. I won't even put my jacket on our office chairs at work because it will smell. If I spill fuel on myself, those clothes will more than likely end up in the trash.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1973 times:
There has been some good info posted here. Answered some old questions I had, even. But back to the original question:
There is NO old trapped fuel.
All those little catch basins get sluiced out every landing, every couple of flying hours. References to moss or fungus growing in stagnant pools of water simply does not apply. Every time the plane is fueled, these pools get sluiced out and the fuel in them replaced with brand new fuel. If you sluiced out a dead pool of a creek with fresh water every couple of hours do you think it would get all mossy?
There are only dead pools of trapped fuel when the tanks are emptied, either partially or fully. If you are thinking that this trapped fuel is there forever you are deluding yourself. It becomes part of the general fuel load once the tanks are serviced at the next landing.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
Air2gxs From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1943 times:
Slamclick,
You are mistaken. There is trapped fuel. There is the very real possibility of bacteria, not moss, growing in this fuel. This bacteria can cause all sorts of issues including but not limited to fuel quantity problems and corrosion. We treat for bacteria regularly. I have seen this bacteria. It can only grow in fuel that has been stagnant for some time.
It probably isn't more than a couple of gallons total in a tank, but it is there. I have seen it, with the growth on the structure around it. I've seen it on B747, B727 and DC8 aircraft.
When I get to work this weekend, I'll see if I can find some info on the bacterial agent we use to kill the stuff.
Now, with that, lets re-state and clear up some issues. Trapped and unusable fuel are design terms. They define quantities of fuel that can be drained/not drained, used/not used during flight, ect. These definitions do not mean that a particular molecule of fuel is never used, or becomes "old". The fuel will always stay in a constant state of mixing unless it is frozen. (definition of liquid)
Secondly, this constant motion of fuel molecules does not prevent microbial growth. Neither does the daily flight / refueling of an aircraft. This stuff can grow on the fuel and on the tank walls. This is why tanks are checked routinely for growth and why most fuel contains biocides.
Shawn
Air transport is just a glorified bus operation. -Michael O'Leary, Ryanair's chief executive
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13334 posts, RR: 64 Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1929 times:
There is a misconception here about microbial growth in fueltanks. The bacteria actualy live in water and feed on the fuel at the interface between water (specificaly heavier than fuel) and the fuel. This water accumulates at the lowest points of the tanks, and the bacteria form a kind of slimy goop on the tank structure, which promotes corrosion and can disolve the tank sealant. This is why fuel tanks should be sumped regularely. Most transport category jets have a water scavenging system containing jet pumps, which will continiously draw the fluid (fuel / water mix) from the lowest points of the tanks. Also, if you fuel the plane, the effect is like holding a fire hose into the tank, it will stir everything up, this the reason why you shouldn´t sump the tanks for water until the fuel has been standing still for at least 3 hours. On the MD-11the fuel is constanly moved as long as the pumps are on. The only plane I ever found a few drops of water in was the outer wing tanks of an A300-600. We´ve got a procedure now to move the outer wing fuel into the inner wing tanks at every weekly service check. It was explained before, that the fuel in the outer wing tanks of the A300-600 usualy doesn´t get used.
Mender From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 224 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1907 times:
I'm glad MD11 engineer pointed out that the bacteria needs the water.
The worst affected aircraft are private jets based in tropical countries. This is due to the low flying hours combined with the climate.
Aircraft in these conditions should be parked with full fuel tanks to reduce the risk of condensation forming inside the tank ABOVE the fuel. Hence the need for full tanks and regular draining of the sumps.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1796 times:
Okay, for those of you who did not read the thread starter, the question was:
what happens to that stuff that doesn't get used right off the bat, or does it decay or does its potency go down?
Again, the answer is NO.
There is no old fuel.
He did not ask about colloid fungus or entrained water. He asked about jet fuel aging.
So those of you who disagree with my answers, please explain to us all what mechanism is in place to prevent liter of jet fuel trapped behind a wing rib from mixing with the rest of the fuel load once the plane is refueled and takes off once again into a turbulent atmosphere.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
Arrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2582 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1709 times:
I found this thread fascinating. But here's a question: how do you go about the "cleaning' process in tanks on small jets like CRJs, Embraers, etc? Surely you can't crawl into those tanks.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
25 Lehpron: Yeah me too, I did not know stuff grows in fuel, of course oil comes from millions of years of decaying dinosaurs and whatnot so "life finds a way" to
26 ChallengerDan: On the CRJ, a regular to small size person can crawl into the most inboard part of the wing (the first 4 or 5 acces panels, from the center) but it's
27 Dalmd88: When the fuel is drained for maintenace it doesn't go down the drain. Any fuel that doesn't get pumped into the defuel truck is drained out the sumps
28 AUAE: Red cans, Yellow cans, Trash cans....hey what can do I throw this rag in????
29 Dc10hound: As far as "stirring everything up" or 'sluicing out" a fuel tank, I respectfully submit the following AMM excerpt: Reference: A300-600 AMM 28-25-00-0
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