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AMTs Unskilled...enough With This Bull$***  
User currently offlineCdfMXTech From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1341 posts, RR: 24
Posted (15 years 4 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1847 times:

Alright...now I'm pissed off.
For the record...I am an Aircraft Maintenance TECHNICIAN. I work on some of the most sophisticated airplanes, in some of the worst conditions and under some of the most intense pressure. But I love my job. I get a chance to work with airplanes, learn something everyday, am challenged...BUT I'M UNDERPAID.
Yes...I'm sure this is the same tired ass argument that you've all heard, but the news today sickens me.

Northwest Airlines...I guess in an attempt to pay their TECHNICIANS less than deserved, went to the gov't and asked for a standard rate for all industry technicians. And that standard rate isn't even what we're worth...in my opinion. It's so odd that a pilot can get paid the amount of money that they do from these airlines...but its seems that airlines balk at the idea of paying technicians. I just don't get it.

Look...gone are the days of the ancient aircraft. Airline fleet consist of oversized computers. Now, computers constantly monitor themselves. But they need and operator to oversee them. But when things really get bad, that's when you call tech support. Without tech support....the computer will not get back up.
Yes..welcome to the world of modern commercial aviation, where the computer is the 777, the operator is the pilot and tech support is the technician.

I'd better stop because all of this frustration is coming out too fast. I've said it b4 and I'll say it again. I am not degrading the job that pilots do. But I've jumpseated On B737, B757, B767, B777s. I know the systems as a technician. I know the procedures. I KNOW WHAT GOES ON AFTER 400ft.
I KNOW WHAT DAYSHIFT TECHNICIANS DO ALSO...when all the first round flights are gone. But I also know that when s*** hits the fan during a flight, those skilled pilots do a hell of a job. And when s*** realy hits the fan on the line for that "unskilled" technician", he does a hell of a job too. Can it be compared...I think so. Obviously the airlines and maybe the gov't doesn't.

But they are going to be sorry. Let the powers that be pass something like that...and you think things got bad for United!! Just sit back and watch what can happen to air travel during a day with all industry technicians "sick". It could very well happen. This would not be an airlines - technician battle. This would be a battle of bigger means.

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
User currently offlineTom2katie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (15 years 4 months 6 hours ago) and read 1671 times:

Where did you get the info about NW going to Congress for a standard rate for us poor abused AMT's. I find this disturbing and stinking of Frank Lorenzo. Would like to review your source for my own piece of mind. Thanks for any info you can give.

User currently offline242 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 498 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (15 years 4 months 6 hours ago) and read 1667 times:

This may be a good sign, depending on how you view it. It shows that airline management is finaly starting to respect AMTs, even if it's in a bad way.

Airline management already knows that they've totally lost control of pilot salaries. The know that ALPA has the power to hold them upside down by the ankles and shake until all the money falls out of their pockets. It seems that management is finally realizing that we AMTs have the power to ground the entire fleet.

I say it's time to unite. We really need something along the lines of ALTA (Air Line Technicians Association). How nice it would be to say to management: "Pay us what we demand, or you're going to be paying the pilots $350/hr to sit in the cockpit and make Vroom Vroom and machine gun noises in an otherwise dead 120 million dollar aircraft that's unable to move under its own power."  Smile

If this Northwest request is true, it may be time for all AMTs to start preparing for another career. If an AMT salary cap becomes law, these jobs won't be worth squat (as if they're worth much now).

When shopping for new aircraft, managements top request will be "Aircraft will service, troubleshoot and repair itself."  Wink/being sarcastic

User currently offlineNKP S2 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1714 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (15 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1638 times:

I agree. I think "242" just about got the gist of it all--I'd just like to elaborate more. This is the perfect "wedge issue" because it throws the normally Pro-business/Laissez-Faire managements' actions, and commitment, into sharp relief with the real supposed goals of the business model. --- It puts management ( and government ) into the unenviable position of defending what they heretofore fought: Government regulation. If they want market forces to decide everything else...why is the free market not good enough enough now? -- I think, up to now, that the irony of the situation is lost on the people involved because they were looking at this in a series of micro-managed events...but when you look at the "big picture" ( God knows WE hear that enough from mgt! ) it's quite obvious. -- I remember the baseball strikes some years back and witnessed the same hypocrisy...Normally "knee-jerk" anti-labor pundits supporting the players ( and opposing salary caps ) just because they're sports fans--If they were anybody of the dirty fingernail persuasion those same pudits would be railing against them. It's all a matter of class people. The ugly truth.

User currently offline242 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 498 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (15 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1615 times:

So true, NKP, so true. You just know there's a bean counter somewhere grinding his teeth at the thought of some "grease monkey" making a six figure salary.

User currently offlineFr8tdog From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (15 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1614 times:

Hey Maint techs,

I respect your jobs to the fullest. I need your support when I have a problem on an aircraft. However I can see some of managments arguments when a valuable maint. tech is utilized by the union to sweep a 100 x100' section of a hanger for 8-10hr every day..........all for job security... that is the wrong way to keep a job and ask for up to 300% increase in pay....
As for the pilots job being so easy and glamourous? not really! the Mech or maint techs dont have to worry about recieving violations and threats of a licence revocation because of a paper work screw up. for the maint end of an airline the airline is responsible for the liability on the work. The pilots are on their own, pretty much. When we move the aircraft from the blocks for intended flight it becomes the PIC's responsibility for any liability on work done on the aircraft and airworthiness of the aircraft.
The maint guys dont have inspectors looking over their shoulder on any given flight, asking for the AML,DMI, discrepency defferal lists, and asking the pilots if everything is good! including correct tire pressures, strut inflation.
Is everything including defferals recorded correctly?

Placards in the correct and corrisponding locations?

Guess what, if a safety inspector finds anything out of place, its not the maint techs that have to worry, it's the pilots.
if an wing tip is struck on the taxi in , the pilot is given a free 2-4wk unpaid vacation, and subsuqent investigation from the FAA.
If maint strikes a tip on bringing it into the hanger, most likely its just a scolding and its back to work.
Pilots also have to maintain a Profficency check every 6mos and a check ride every yr in order to maintain our jobs. Medical checks every 6mos including cardiograms if your over 35yrs of age, vision that has to be correctable to 20/20, if we have a heart attack, guess what we are off of work for months if we are lucky, Possibly never being to work in our field again.
Not too mention the amount of time and money spent getting to where we are at now.
2-4yrs of college for starters.
PPl-$3000-40hrs min
IPL- $4000- 40hrs min (but need 125hrs inorder to take check ride)
so another $2500 for gaining total time for instrument ride
CPL $2000 10hrs (but need additional hrs to take the ride 250hrs TT min)
hey can finally get paid to fly! No not really! it basically
allows for aerial photo and skydivers, cant fly charters because not enough total time.
so how bout becoming a flight instructor? sure for an additional $2-3000 one can and instruct for a measly $9000-18,000yr for about 1-4yrs depending on how many hrs you fly in a year!
Wow now I can fly for the airlines and make big money!
NOPE not yet... you need multi-engine time!
You go and get your MEI and CFII so that you can build multi-time but since multi-engine students are far and few between, you decide to fly night freight! Great multiengine time and getting paid $16,000/yr, hey awesome dude!.
now after about 1-2yrs you have enough multiengine time to apply for the regional airlines, cool beans got on as a First officer! at oh whats that? an awesomally huge sum of money of $17,000/yr
Now after 1-6yrs as a FO you can have the chance of making the left seat as a captain. cool now the bucks start rolling in! what? what did you say ? for all of that fighting and responsibility I can make $34,000/yr !,
hehe cool.... I am on the way up!
So I stick it out at the regionals for 3-6yrs and finally get a shot at the SHOW! flying for Mainline! awesome dude! the BIG BUCKS! Wrong again...... Most of the regional capts make more and will take a pay cut for 1-2yrs as an FO at most Mainlines. the pay is still marginal for up to 5yrs.

So AMT's please dont be upset at me! I concure that you have a lot of responsibilitys and deserve better pay than what is being offered. Just dont try to compare apples and oranges.
compare apples to apples, Most auto techs make more than you do! go that direction, not our way!

It has taken me since 1990 to get where I am at and spent approx $35,000 just to get to the CFI level, spent 1.3 yrs instructing, 1 yr as a fr8t pilot, and 1 yr as a FO, now upgrading to Capt at a regional.
I think that I paid MY DUES! and still am paying.

Good luck to everyone getting into Aviation, what ever it may be. IT IS A tough row to hoe.
and for those who think that airline pilots are paid too much ! why dont you question the surgens bill while you are under His/her knife! dont question mine when you get on my airplane!

cheers Fr8tdog

User currently offlineNKP S2 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1714 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (15 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1599 times:

With all due respect to you and your profession Fr8tdog, the "sweeping of the hangar" statement is a strawman argument...as is the remark about a 300% increase in compensation. Companies like to forget about previous concessions when negotiating contracts...preferring to establish baselines from the post-concession wages. If you add what it takes to make up lost ground to a general negotiated increase, of course the wage demands will seem unreasonable... just as management wants the public ( who do not know the details ) to think. I believe NWA mechs were shooting for 100%...knowing full well the two sides will likely meet in the middle. BTW, FYI, A&P mechanics are in fact reponsible for the correctness of their paperwork, and subject to action from the FAA if mistakes are made...we are reminded and admonished often in meetings about this. Nobody's knocking you or pilots in general--And you can be proud of your accomplishments without subtle potshots at mechanics ( or unions ). The basic arguments of both groups can stand on their own.

User currently offline242 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 498 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (15 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1586 times:

I think you misunderstood my post, Fr8tdog. My beef is not with pilot salaries, and you could have spared yourself some typing, I have several friends that are pilots. I know the drill.

Lets start with the FAA safety inspectors. At least they show up and introduce themselves before you start your flight. They certainly don't stroll in to the cockpit in mid flight and demand to see paperwork. A typical visit from the FAA for me goes something like this:

It's three in the morning, and I'm changing the #4 main on a DC-9. The FAA inspector walks up out of the darkness and says:
FAA: Hello. I'm so-and-so from the FAA. (He shows me his blue line badge) Mind telling me what you're doing?

Me: I'm right in the middle of changing the #4 main tire.

FAA: Where's the aircraft logbook?

Me: Inside the office.

FAA: Have you done this job before? Do you have the manual out here with you?

Me: Yes, many times, and no, I do not have the manual with me, but I've done this job many times, and I know the manual procedures down to the exact ATA reference and page number. 32-40-01 page 395-396

FAA: OK, what is the torque?

Me: 100 ft/lbs initial, 50 ft/lbs final

FAA: Is your torque wrench in calibration? Let me see it. (He checks the inspection sticker) OK, thanks for your time.

If at any time he does not like my answers, he has the power to take my A&P certificate then and there. He then goes to the office to check my story.

Most likely a "scolding" and back to work for striking a wing tip? Hardly. Whenever an aircraft is damaged by MTC, it's always a mandatory drug test and 3-5 days off without pay.

So Fr8tdog, how does it make you feel that soon enough, the aircraft that you trust everyday may be maintained by a bunch of rejects from the computer and automotive industrys? All the sharp AMTs will have left for greener pastures. It's in your best interest to support us.

User currently offlineTom2katie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (15 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1580 times:

frtdog - You need a little educating. An AMT is not only responsible for the aircraft from the time it "leaves the blocks", he is responsible for the work he preformed for the LIFE OF THE AIRCRAFT or until someone else signs off the same work after him. We are subject to FAA search and seizure at anytime they damn well please, and we never get the courtesy of them calling ahead to say they are going to be with us at any given time. I do 2 to 3 hours worth of paperwork every 10 hour shift. ( I am a shift lead, so I have SLIGHTLY more paperwork to do than a floor mechanic, but not much.) And, I am liable for every i I dot and t I cross, including the info I choose to put into the shift turnover log. Every action I perform must be documented chapter and verse as to the reference I use to perform that work. And believe me, I WILL be violated if I miss something on the paperwork. Ask the Valuejet AMTS who are now looking at CAPITAL MURDER charges for their little paperwork snafu. A potential mechanic is not eligible to take his test for his basic license until he has a MINIMUM of 1900 hours of instruction or 30 months practical experience. How much instruction did you have when you first strapped into the seat as a big shot commercial pilot? About 300 hours or so???? Most AMTs attend recurrent training to the tune of 80 to 200 hours a year, depending on the airline. I have a college degree as do many of my fellow amts. Most amts have a minimum of $20,000 invested in thier tools which we are REQUIRED to have and maintain ourselves. I personally spend $3000 to $5000 a year adding to and maintaining my tools. Lots of guys spend more than me. I know every inch of your aircraft.. I have to. I know how all the systems interact and the effect that losing one system will have on all of the others. As a line mechanic, I have to use this knowledge to not only figure out what you did to break your plane, but how to get it fixed in the 45 minutes they give me to turn the airplane. Usually, I get to do this outside where it is cold and blowing rain sideways while you are in there sipping coffee and slapping F/A's on the rear end. I know, you do a "walk around" before every flight, but when the weather is crappy, your walk around is a sprint. I don't have the luxury of leaving until the job is done and done correctly. As to the FAA going over your deferrals and strut inflation and what-not, who do you think they come after when they find something wrong with this stuff? They tell you to check with maintenance, and its' over for you. The least that will happen to the tech who didnt' sign it off correctly is a good thorough ass chewing. He could very well lose his license and/or his job. I have no doubt the road to the left seat on a major can be tough. But get your head out of your ass. Most amts are going to spend 20 years on nights away from their families before they have seniority enough to bid to a day shift. By then, their wife will have left them and their kids don't know them. And we spend this 20 years getting soaked in chemicals that help us die of horrible cancers at a young age while working outside in any sort of conditions you can imagine. I have actually changed a fuel boost pump while the outside air temp was 48 below. Could you do that? Isn't that worth a little bit more than the average $35.000 a year an AMT makes? News flash to you and yours: Bring the wages up, or we are all gonna be gone. And then you can sit and look all glamorous by your big dead plane. I don't mean to sound bitter, but I am. Guys like you have no concept of what it takes to get your big shiny aircraft to the gate everyday. There is an army of dedicated men and women out there who sweat and sacrafice everyday in a thankless job so you can strut around and look cool. Before you spout about what our jobs are like again, ask one of us what they are REALLY like. And if you really want to impress me, say thanks.. and mean it. By the way, I have NEVER ONCE in my career had TIME to sweep the hangar.

User currently offlineNKP S2 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1714 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (15 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1548 times:

...And the congregation says: Amen! I wanted to be more concilliatory, but you got the job done just the same. As they say: "Ya gotta crack eggs to make an omelet".

User currently offlineNKP S2 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1714 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (15 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1549 times:

Same applies to you as 242...Good show!

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 30414 posts, RR: 57
Reply 11, posted (15 years 3 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1543 times:

the Mech or maint techs dont have to worry about recieving violations or threats of a licence revocation because of a paper work screw up.

You are S---ing me. What the hell are you smoking????

You must be really popular with your line guys.....

If anything a pilots liability is less because HE/SHE IS ONLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE AIRCRAFT DURING THE DURATION OF ITS FLIGHT!!! or to put it another way, Preflight to Postflight. An A&P is resposible for any part that he installs or any repair or inspection for the LIFE OF THE PART/INSPECTION or until it is replaced.

User currently offlineCdfMXTech From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1341 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (15 years 3 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1540 times:

It really interesting isn't it.
Fr8tdog kinda showed what most people think us Aircraft Maintenance Technicians.

Do u ever wonder if we'd get the respect we deserve it we wore black pants, a white shirt and had "5" stripes on our shoulder??

No Fr8tdog - I'm not downplaying your importance...but as I initially stated...I know what you guys do after takeoff and get paid 6 figures. The airplane can fly...BUT NOT FIX OR MAINTAIN ITSELF!!!

Look...let's face it Technical Ops and Flight Ops are the most important 2 depts in an air operation. So when I make a comparison...I'm making it to prove our case.

User currently offlineVc-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3727 posts, RR: 32
Reply 13, posted (15 years 3 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1529 times:
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I'm glad I read the rest of the post's before replying to Fr8tdog. He really fired me up.

It's just the same in the UK, we get unannounced spot chks from the CAA and risk the loss of our licence. As you will see from my profile, I am in Maint Control. Who do the Flt crew call when there a problem ? - the engineers in Maintrol.

User currently offlineL_188 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (15 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1521 times:

It kind of reminds me of a saying that we had back when I was in the Army Signal Corp.....

They can talk about us, but not without us.

User currently offlineFr8tdog From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (15 years 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1514 times:

HUH looks like all of you AMT's, A&P's,and IA's out there Misunderstood me, First of all when a company becomes a service center the Corp does the sign offs on the aircraft and takes liability.
secondly When a NW mech says that working at NW has been a vacation for the last 14yrs and he was the one that told me about the sweeping in the hanger and the unions ploy for that.

Now I am not saying your job is the easiest nor the warmest nor the best paying position in the world.
I am just tired of the mechanics comparing your job with my job, and saying that we are being paid too much for what we do, (I have been up in the cockpit and know what goes on after 400') that pissed me off !

last : what I ment from the auto mech point is if they are getting 75-80K a year you amt's, A&P's and IA's should be getting more than that!

last but least..... I am a former MILLWRIGHT yes I have worked outside in conditions up to -30 wrenching on machinery.. I have worked with hazardous chemicals from factory's when working on material handling equip.
moving and installing 75000lbs pieces of machinery.....

Again if you read my article Many thanks to the mechanics for what you do !


User currently offlineCrew chf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (15 years 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1511 times:

Why are pilots always brought up when we don't get our way? I went thru two years of vo-tech just like you, I also have a father and two brothers that fly with the majors, it takes many years of flying junk all day and all nite for peanuts, and thats with a four year degree, not to mention being an instructor for $8.00 an hour prior to flying junk for $9.00.an hour, and than your hired to fly humans beings for $900.00 a month, if your lucky your flying 2nd officer in a 3 holer for $22000.00 and it has taken seven years to reach that from the start, and than to find out that your are eligable to collect food stamps!! I dont know any group that makes more sacrifices than the airline pilot!! but this is my opinion,

User currently offlineTom2katie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (15 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1504 times:

I hurt my fingers trying to get through to you last time frtdog, and as usual with your type, it was wasted energy. You just don't get it, and you absoluetly never will. The problem is, that ignorance like yours is what gets promoted into management at the airlines and that is why maintenance will always be viewed as a liability. Truth be told, your job is NOT worth what you are paid. What you are paid is a result of ALPA's ability to terrorize the airlines with your sickouts and such. And to say that our jobs don't compare is ludicrous at best. For all the reasons I listed above and countless more. I have the ratings and am extremely capable of doing what you do. I know beyond a doubt, that you could not spend one day doing what I do. That's about all I have to say to you. Good luck...

User currently offlineChopper From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (15 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1499 times:

I am not as qualified as all of you guys. But strugleing to get my pilots license in fix-wing and helicopter was no fun for me and jumping to different jobs making the best I can for my family and for flying has not been the greatest since 1989. I sure have learned owning my business then bailing out of it,that any job out there is never going to be good enough knowbody cares about knowbody. last year I was making thousand of dollars a month pressure washing homes. Now I am making 9.50 an hour sanding planes. (AND I SWEEP THE HANGERS OUT TOO)SO I guess my point would be to poeple who dont like how much they make. Move on go somewhere else. I sure dont plan on sanding planes for 20 years. and all you amts if your realy depressed at your job come spend a day at the paint shop youll love your job after that. I realy think every one should make more money. look at doctors I couldnt afford to take my kid in one time and they refused service for her,then I go do work on these surgeons homes and there millions of dollars. Life is not fare

User currently offlineFr8tdog From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (15 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1503 times:

Hey Tom2Kati, I am not going to resort to pointing fingers and name calling!
For creditability I am going to tell you I have been in the aviation industry for 15yrs, I have been involved with unions for the last 20 from the TEAMSTERS, IAW, to ALPA and several contract negotiations, HMMMM Have I ever heard of slowdowns for job security (not associated to negotiations) yes! it happens on a daily occurance. are the airlines immune to this? NO it happens there too. MY POINT TO THE whole thing was management sees this and will be less willing to contribute to the demands of the union. PERIOD.

ARE MAINT TECH AND MECH's liable for the work? yes however the airline as a corp signs off the airplane and hence takes responsibility.

last but not least another comparison do you think that a nurse that works in surgury should make the same amount as the heart surgen ? hmmmm nope but the nurse should be paid a fair amt,
now that last example is a extreme one. not comparing your job to this.....

User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 30
Reply 20, posted (15 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1495 times:

Hello Fr8tdog,

I don't understand your unwillingness to accept the fact that at least in the airlines I've worked for (PEX/Butler, Continental, AA and FDX) the mechanic does take responsibility in the signoffs and Airworthiuness Releases signed by him/her. I fail to understand what you mean by the corporation signing off on the a/c and taking responsibility. Unless you're inferring that in case off loss of life or property thet the corporation takes the financial burden, but in that instance how is their any differce between pilots or mechanics.
Also for the past bunch of years the airlines have what is called "voluntary disclosure" where if the airlines "QA" (quality assurance department, basically paperwork auditors) department finds an irregularity, they self disclose this information to the FAA to in essence reduce the airlines liability but fully expose the mechanic to fines or punitive action.
When I started in the airlines approx 18 years ago, it was common practice for maintenance foreman or line supervision to be called out at the request of a flight crew to help "dispatch the aircraft" (euphimism, but you should get the drift). NO MORE. Nowadays, management won't touch an airplane with a TEN FOOT POLE. Why? To limit the companys LIABILITY, after all, a supervisor is an official of the corporation and the corporation wants to limit its involvement into any unpleasantries that can be hung on the mechanic (or pilot).
Aircraft strikes: A scolding and back to work? No. Normally a week or two off pending an investigation and loss of pay depending on the outcome of a hearing. Not to mention loss of bidding (not shift bidding) rights for a year.
Hangar sweeping as job protection?: Well I can't speak for NWA but I've never seen this occur where I've worked. Usually from what I observe, the junior flight crew member gets bottled water for the rest of the flightcrew, wraps the bottle with a paper towel and hands it to the captain and F/O. Should I assume this duty alone is justification to the the F/E's existance? Of course not, just as a mechanic sweeping his work area (most likely hating each minute of it) isn't the justification for his position, its just part of the job.
The flight crewmember and aircraft mechanic have different careers. The mechanic to keep the aircraft airworthy, the pilot to fly an airworthy aircraft. But the mechanic and pilot are equally liable under the law for their respective duties, neither has a free or easier ride than the other.

You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineVc-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3727 posts, RR: 32
Reply 21, posted (15 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1471 times:
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To put a UK perspective on this, engineers over here are in the same situation.

The pilot signs to signify he/she accepts the the a/c in it's current condition, the engineer is responsible for ensuring all the necessary maintenance and mandatory inspections have been carried prior to that flight. The Flight Crew have no idea if a mandatory inspection was due prior to their flight.

Are you, as a pilot still responsible for a flight you operated 1 year ago ? I am still answerable for a repair I certified 20 years ago.

I have heard of engineers losing their licences for gross errors and in fact I know one engineer who lost his certification approval for 3 months for a paperwork error.

A year or so ago I was subject to a CAA spot chk at about 21:00 hrs one night while supervising a JT9 engine change, they wanted to know where the MM printout was, how I was recording the work being carried out and then inspected the work sheets, when was I last on duty, when I will next be on duty etc, so don't come that SH 1T that the pilot carries the world on his shoulders everytime he/she signs the log book.

I my current position in Maintrol I stand a good chance of loosing my certification rights if I cannot prove I have had recent "hands on" experience. I am not complaining about it but it illustrates that we need to prove recency so it's not a ticket for life.

I don't know about the US but in the UK the reason licenced engineers are poorly paid is apathy. For some reason a majority of licenced engineers will not join the Association of Licenced Aircraft Engineers. If the majority did this organisation would have the power of BALPA or ALPA to force remuneration up. As it is, the association is in a catch 22 situation, they don't have the strength because they don't have enough members and the don't have enough members because they don't have the strength.

Finally in 27 years in the industry I have NEVER repeat NEVER swept a hanger floor or been expected to.

User currently offlineTom2katie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (15 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1460 times:

vc-10 I must say here, here! Although you will find nothing but a hard head and deaf ears when trying to reach blockheads like frtdog, I appreciate you standing up for your brothers across the Pond.

User currently offlineFr8tdog From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (15 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1465 times:

Alright I have to stop this before it goes too far

Guys and Gals in the maint field, at anytime during my posts I did not mean nor directed any type of derogatory remarks or comments toward the mechanics or AMT's

It was a matter of opinion that for any type of job slow downs, management frowns apon this type of action, and during negotiations they will bring these items up.
Thus making it harder to accomplish any contract goals.

As for the liability aspect I may have misunderstood what I have read and people who I have talk to about it.
I was under the impression that a Repair station certificate holder (i.e. an corporation) is the main liability holder.

Pay wise I am all for the increase that you are asking for.

User currently offlineTom2katie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (15 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1471 times:

A repairman acting under a repair station license is protected to some degree. However, a certified A&P takes on full liability for any action he signs for regardless of which type of certificate he operates under. Most amts fall under the certificate that the airline operates under, be it Part 121,123 or 135. Unless, the airline farms out its maintenance to repair stations. In that circumstance, the amt assumes even MORE liability because the airline certainly isn't going to go to bat to protect contract labor under any circumstances. At least a mechanic on company payroll, MAY have some sort of legal help from his/her employer, although this is highly unlikely. Any maintenance type incident I have been involved in, the airline hangs the mechanic out to dry and circles the wagon around its flight crews. If you would like, I can provide you several very specific instances where this was the case. Under any circumstance, regardless of what type of certificate the airline operates under or how the operations manual is written, the AMT signing for the work is ultimately responsible for the repair or inspection being signed for for THE LIFE OF THE AIRCRAFT or until that repair or inspection is superceded. There are NO EXCEPTIONS to this.

As to your comments about comparing our jobs to yours, I think many of us made very reasonable arguments that there are many comparisons. Your nurses and surgeons analogy is absolutely ignorant and completely infuriating. Implying that mechanics are "nurses" and not worthy of "surgeon" or pilot wages is asisine. A nurse has no where near the training nor the responsibility a surgeon has. The nurse carries out the doctors orders. The doctor assumes the ultimate responsibility. Airworthiness decisions that a mechanic makes are made using his training and available references, but ultimately, when he signs his name, his is assuming FULL responsibility for this repair. And the decision is his and his alone. Training wise, a mechanic has much more training under his belt when he starts his career than any commercial pilot flying. And his license is viewed as a license to learn. As an AMT I am not allowed to perform any repair for which I have not specifically been trained, and I must provide written records of this training if a FAA inspector demands it. So, you can consider most of the work I do to be continued training, even regardless of the formal schooling I may attend during the year. (This averages 40 to 200 hours a year, depending on the airline)

Your arguments show a base ignorance about what airline maintenance entails. That is what set everybody in here off so bad. If my job is not worth at least the money that a captain with similar years of experience receives, then someone had better do a better job of explaining to me why he is worth so much. I sincerely wish that those in ops and maintenance alike could get over the "us vs them" attitude that currently plagues our industry. It could only make it better for all of us. take care and good luck

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