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Etops  
User currently offlineNorthwest717 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8880 times:

Ok, to start off, I'm sorry if this is a stupid question. I keep hearing people refer to "ETOPS" and I know it has something to do with the aircraft only having two engines and that is why some airlines chose (supposedly) the A340 over the 777. What is ETOPS? This is just one of those things I never found out about.

-Tim

Again, sry if this is a stupid question.

59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWidgetBoi From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1432 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8733 times:

ETOPS (Extended Twin-engine OPerationS) is an acronymn for an International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) rule permitting newer twin-engined commercial air transports to fly routes that, at some points, are further than a distance of 60 minutes flying time from an emergency or diversion airport. This definition allows twin-engined airliners—like Boeing 757, 767, 777 and Airbus A300, A320 series, A330—to fly routes long distances (especially over water) that were previously off-limits to twin-engined aircraft.

I hope that helps  Big grin

jeremy


User currently offlineBlackbird1331 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1893 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8722 times:

Has to do with extended operation over water with one engine out.


Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
User currently offlineZoom767 From Canada, joined May 2004, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8701 times:

Try this for a detailed explanation and history:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETOPS

I just found it using google. Until then I didn't know myself.


User currently onlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2454 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8666 times:

ETOPS: Engines Turning Or Passengers Swimming.
Also works with EROPS [R = Running].

ETOPS sets out regulations for twin engined aircraft for extended flights without a suitable diversion airport. ETOPS 120 means that this twin can fly routes that should have diversion airports within 120 minutes of flight at one engine. ETOPS 180 and 207 are currently also in use. Boeing is doing 777-300ER trials for ETOPS 330. In order to fly these routes, operatos must meet the stringent regulations of these ETOPS rules.

ETOPS is to be replaced by LROPS [Long Range OPerationS], which set regulations for long range flights for ALL airliners, not just twins.

PW100



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlineBackfire From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8648 times:

Has to do with extended operation over water with one engine out.

Not necessarily over water. Just operations where a twin-engined aircraft is flying a considerable distance away from any designated alternate airport.


User currently offlineKabila From Belgium, joined May 2003, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8649 times:

ETOPS also stands for :

Engines
Turned
Off
Passengers
Swimming


 Big thumbs up



User currently offlineKFLLSpotter From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 104 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8646 times:

PW100, you got to it before me  Big grin

ETOPS: Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim

[Edited 2004-05-08 23:36:47]

User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8588 times:

Has to do with extended operation over water

ETOPS, in and of itself, has nothing to do with over-water ops


User currently offlineBlackbird1331 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1893 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8553 times:

Thank you so much, everyone. I am a lousy swimmer.


Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
User currently offlineTristar2000 From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 274 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8505 times:

ETOPS 330???? Man I didn't know about this one, that's 5.5 hours to a diversion airports, not many places where that applies... I mean if you're in the middle of the atlantic, most of the time, you're 3 hours or less away from each side, so ETOPS 180 and 207 meant you could pratically choose the straight line you wanted if ATC approved it.

Does anyone know where ETOPS 330 could really come in handy???


User currently offlineBlackbird1331 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1893 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8492 times:

My guess would be, over water. Or a place without land.


Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
User currently offlineEddieho From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 229 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8475 times:

Has this rule ever been used before? e.g. A plane with one engine would manage to land within 60 minutes.

User currently offlineNorthwest717 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8430 times:

Thanks for all your responses! Now I finally know and can read posts without scratching my head and going, "ETOPS, huh???". LOL. Thanks again!

-Tim  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


User currently offlineOB1783P From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8414 times:



OK, we get what the acronym stands for. But "my" question is, what entity earns an ETOPS qualification? Is it an aircraft, or a certain aircraft in a certain airline fleet?

I remember reading in a recent post that TG had had trouble with ETOPS certification, and would thus keep all four-engine fleet over extensive water. Yet TG has never lost an aircraft over water. I would rather fly a TG twin over water than, say, Egyptair, who obviously has a good ETOPS rating.

This is getting very interesting...







I've flown thousands of miles and I can tell you it's a lot safer than crossing the street!
User currently offlineLtbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13088 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8388 times:

Very long range ETOPS could be used over the Pacific, Indian Oceans, South Atlantic and overflying land areas such as the Middle East, Parts of Africa, Russia/Asia where few if any safe airports or ones that can handle some aircraft models.

User currently offlineBlackbird1331 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1893 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8376 times:

The airline does not get the certificate, the airplane does, well, its manufacturer. Boy, will I hear it now.


Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8322 times:

ETOPS 330???? Man I didn't know about this one, that's 5.5 hours to a diversion airports, not many places where that applies..

ETOPS 330 has not yet been approved, but Boeing has performed all the necessary testing to obtain certification for this protocal. I believe the 773ER prototype was used for these test. It comes in handy over the south pacific and polar routes.


User currently offlineSNBA319 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2003, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8277 times:

what about that Transat A-3something, that landed without engine power on one of the islands of the Azores...? Was it ETOPS-certified, bound to be...but how many minutes??

User currently offlineTsentsan From Singapore, joined Jan 2002, 2016 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8231 times:

Eddieho:

I think one of the most famous examples of ETOPS where an aircraft had to run on one engine to the nearest airport, was the engine shutdown on a UA 777 from AKL to LAX or SFO... the 777 flew slightly more than 180 mins on 1 engine to reach her diversion airport.




NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineUa777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8202 times:

Tsentsan,

You are correct. It was a UA777222ER that was on it's way to SFO(?) and ended up at HNL. When the actual engine quit it was exactly 180min from there. Now as that pilot I wouldn't really worry about getting there I would worry about the stress on the engine and the damage to the other engine. 3hrs ETOPS is not a big deal for a 777, I think Boeing did 13hrs(?).

ETOPS certification only happens once and that is when the a/c is first built. For example the 777-300ER got its ETOPS certification with the demo a/c and now that that has happened as long as Boeing agrees to build the a/c exactly the same then any 777-300ER built after is certified.

Hope that helps!

UA777222



"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offlineWindowSeat From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1312 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8179 times:


ETOPS certification may happen only once for an aircraft type. That is different from ETOPS certification for each flight. FAR 121.161 states the regulations for ETOPS flights capped at 60 mins. Operators can get around that by complying to the FAA Advisory Circular 120-42A. Each flight needs to be ETOPS certified, through advanced aircraft maintenance, especially engines and APUs. There are very strict regulations eg. the same technicians cannot work on both engines of the twin, it must be done by two seperate techician teams to avoid multiple similar systems maintenance. All systems for ETOPS must be checked before each flight etc etc. In addition flight crew also needs to be certified.

cheers







I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
User currently offlineUa777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8168 times:

I was wondering if they made it so that the route was ETOPS or if any route flown by an ETOPS a/c was certified.

Thanks again WindowSeat, I had been wondering about that and didn't want to post something false.


UA777222



"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3527 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8125 times:

wasn't there an A330 that was going from LAX - SYD or something like that that lost an engine and the flight crew flew it for 4 hours on one engine? Im probably way overstating it but wasn't it like the longest flight ever on one engine? maybe it was a 76 or 77? ahh i think it was on a thread here. annnyway post if you know about it.


Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineMarcolic From Mexico, joined Dec 2003, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8106 times:

what does MTOW means??


I love aviation
25 Airways6max : ETOPS is an acronym for Extended Twin OperationS and it had its origins in the mid '80s when El Al began to fly the Boeing 767 on Trans Atlantic route
26 JoseMEX : Marco, MTOW= Maximum Take-Off Weight Saludos.
27 Marcolic : JoseMEX: Thanks a lot, Marcolic
28 Jhooper : ETOPS appears to be a calculated risk, especially among the 300+ minute ETOPS flights. Correct me if I'm wrong, but It seems only a matter of time bef
29 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Methinks some of you need to refresh yourself on the difference between ETOPS approval and certification   ***************************** ETOPS appear
30 MidnightMike : ETOPS Extended range operations are those flights conducted over a route that contains a point further than "1" hour flying time at the approved one
31 ConcordeBoy : You would be surprised but, the quads, percentage wise have a higher percentage of diversions & turnbacks than two engine aircraft. Not surprising at
32 Artsyman : Like Freddie mentioned, the main issue with etops is that there are significantly more stringent rules that must be followed in order for the aircraft
33 Lehpron : How is ETOPS certified/calulated, is it how far a plane can go on one engine or how far is should go on one engine? If should, then is pretty much has
34 QantasA332 : How is ETOPS certified/calulated, is it how far a plane can go on one engine or how far is should go on one engine? Etops is certified/calculated acco
35 Post contains images Lehpron : Quantas332, I didn't expect the answer that quick. What if a plane misses one category, like if it ends up with a 137 minutes max on one engine assumi
36 Pikachu : 207 minutes is a 15% extension of 180 minutes as 137 minutes is of 120 minutes.
37 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Etops is certified/calculated according to how far an aircraft can go on one engine, with a small safety buffer...I suppose it's therefore how far it
38 Post contains images FLYtoEGCC : To answer the question from reply #18 regarding the Air Transat A330 landing at Lajes... yes, the A330 was ETOPS certified, I believe it would have be
39 Klaus : One of the fuel lines to one of the engines was replaced with a similar but still wrong part during maintenance. It chafed and ultimately broke, causi
40 Jc2354 : Does anyone know the ETOPS rating for the A300 and A310? Both types regularly flew trans-atlantic services, but never served Hawaii. Thanks. Jack
41 Mender : As no one has said this. ETOPS time rating is calculated as the time away from a suitable airfield at normal single engine cruise speed in still air.
42 Pikachu : 1. FlytoEGCC, as I recall the crossfeed was opened and never closed which caused the complete fuel exhaustion. The broken fuel line was caused by a pu
43 Post contains links FLYtoEGCC : Pikachu, thanks for clearing that up, I knew I'd have got something wrong somewhere! However, if the FO knew about the low fuel situation just outside
44 Btv92 : I remember reading an article about the testing of the 773ER that did the 6.5 hours of ETOPS somewhere in the pacific.Of course,there were no passenge
45 Phollingsworth : I seem to remember that when the original rules were written for the 60 min ETOPS, the goals were set such that the FAA etc. was sure that no twin wou
46 Dl757md : That problem, however, was not ETOPS related, it was a fuel problem. ETOPS covers all primary systems of which fuel chapter 28 is most definitely one.
47 MD-11 forever : @ConcordeBoy "...um, and flying a quad with no mandatory pre-planned alternates and no mandatory fire suppression aboard, isn't?????????" Get your fac
48 Starlionblue : If something takes both engines out, that same something would most probably take all the engines out on a quad as well (fuel leak on Air Transat woul
49 Btv92 : In reply to posting # 46,the Air Transat fuel leak was caused by a faulty fuel pump(not intended for the A-330 engine) installed as a substitute part
50 Post contains links Delta-flyer : The issue of "calculated risk" ..... this is the domain of Reliability, Maintainability and Safety Engineering (RM&S). This is one of the most importa
51 Klaus : Delta-flyer: In a 3 or 4 engine airplane, there are inherently more engine redundancies. But reliability is also improved by having more tightly contr
52 Delta-flyer : Klaus ... you're correct that 4 engine planes can be more safe than twins if they are designed and maintained to similar standards. But don't fool you
53 Klaus : Delta-flyer: Klaus ... you're correct that 4 engine planes can be more safe than twins if they are designed and maintained to similar standards. That
54 San2snow : If an airline has ETOPS approval for the 757/767 and then acquire 777's for example do they have to go through the approval process for the 777 or is
55 Delta-flyer : Klaus ... Airbus ..... appears to use increased standards in its publicity especially in the A340/777 battle ..... Well, their standard is still one i
56 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : I never heard of any longhaul fligzht that isn't oprating with pre-planned alternates enroute, no matter if there are 2, 3 or 4 engines!! Forgive my a
57 Post contains images Klaus : Delta-flyer: Well, their standard is still one in a billion .... just like Boeing's twins Are the internal calculations in fact publicized? I know the
58 Post contains images Arcano : Let's be more didactic: This map shows the safe range a 120 mins certificated aircraft can fly: If LANs 767s had this certification, they wouldn't be
59 Delta-flyer : Klaus: Are the internal calculations in fact publicized? No, that's between the manufacturer and the certification authority. But the standard is well
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