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732s Have Emergency Jato Reversers?  
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3393 times:

Long story short; an uncle of mine made an emergency landing (probably a surge while cruising) in a brand new 732 (the only aircraft that fit the description and date that he said), and that when they landed "rockets" fired from the leading edge of the wing (like thrust reversers). I don't remember the airline, and I think it was from mex to houston in an american airline. Is this possible?

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2111 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3326 times:

In a word, no.

The military has tried lots of crazy stuff that even they abandoned as too risky, stuff that would never, ever see the light of day in civilian dressing. One of which was a C-130 reverse JATO landing, to rescue hostages in Iran. During the tests, they fired early, planed dropped out of the air, wing broke, fuel caught on fire, and the idea was abandoned. I can assure you no air carrier, much less an American one, ever had reverse rockets.

Now, there have been rare instances of airliners like the DC-9 having JATO rockets in the wing root for take off, for use in high and humid conditions in case of an engine failure at a critical phase of take off. I think after 6 months if they weren't used (not sure they ever were with passengers) the crew would do a maint. flight and expend them... easier that way then removing fully fueled rockets from a jet airplane, and disposing of them.

I can't think of anything that your uncle could have been talking about that would remotely resemble reverse rockets, with the exception of the all too obvious reverse thrust engines, but you know that.

[Edited 2004-07-08 08:32:53]


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User currently offlineLiamksa From Australia, joined Oct 2001, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3305 times:

Here's the link to the "Super STOL" accident HaveBlue mentions:

http://www.avpics.de/mov/mil/c130mis.rm

As for the commercial use of rockets to reduce landing distances I highly doubt it. I think it would have been one of those topics mentioned at least once a week if it existed.

And sorry to nitpick but a JATO landing is a bit of a contradiction in terms.  Big grin


User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2111 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3306 times:

To nitpick even further, it probably should be called RATO, because I never understood what Jet Assisted Take Off had to do with Rockets. So it would be JAL or even more precisely, RAL.

But, I'm not sure a new acronym has to be coined for something used only once, and most likely, never ever again.

[Edited 2004-07-08 10:01:22]


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User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3214 times:

To nitpick even further, it probably should be called RATO, because I never understood what Jet Assisted Take Off had to do with Rockets. So it would be JAL or even more precisely, RAL.

But, I'm not sure a new acronym has to be coined for something used only once, and most likely, never ever again.


Sometimes they are called RATO. Both descriptions are actually accurate. Since a rocket is just another type of jet engine, i.e., it uses the jet thrust principle. RATO is a more specific naming because it implies that all of the propellants are stored onboard.

I believe that some of the Mexican airlines had JATO equipped 727s for assist with Hot and High take-offs. You rarely need rockets for landing, as it is easier to stop than it is to start, unless you are trying to land on a soccer-field.

By the way none of the helicopters out there are jet powered, some are turbine powered, but none are jet powered. The V-22 is partially jet powered in some regions of flight.


User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2111 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3113 times:

Phollingsworth, it's semantics now, but to my way of thinking a turboprop is much more akin to a jet engined airplane than a rocket powered one is. For that matter, a turbine engined helicopter is more comparable to a jet than a rocket is. At least in both the turboprop and turbine helicopter, it is in reality a jet engine, with either the forward shaft powering a prop or being 90 degreed to a shaft for a rotor. But in both instances, its an air breathing compression to combustion chamber engine driving the aircraft, albeit in slightly different ways. A rocket, imo, has nothing to do with jets. Its 1 or more chemicals combusted, self contained, with no compressors or shafts whatsoever to propel a vehicle forward.

As I said, its semantics, but I'd much sooner call a Huey or a King Air a jet than an X-15, Me-163 or a JATO rocket.

And I'm assuming that when you say the V-22(which I've been fortunate enough to have seen fly twice, and get pictures of) is partially jet propelled, that your speaking of the exhaust from the turbine when in transitional or level flight? Dunno, that's about how much I see a helicopter or turboprops performance attributed to jet flow. Clarify please if I'm wrong, which very well may be.



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User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6453 posts, RR: 54
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3100 times:

Phollingsworth, you are right. Mexicana many years ago had some 727s equipped with JATO bottles in the main wheel wells.

They were only to be fired at take off in case of engine shut down after V1. And only on insufficiently long, hot and high runways.

Those of us who have ever heard a rocket engine will know that such things are totally incompatible with normal civil airport operation.

I have heard rumors about similar installations on DC-9s, but don't remember any details.

[Edited 2004-07-09 00:39:48]


Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3106 times:

Jet is an airbreather, right?
Rocket makes its own oxygen?
JATO just became better known than RATO through wider usage.

It was ONA that developed the JATO mod for the DC-9. It was a freighter. There do exist photos of them being fired. A good friend of mine has ridden a JATO takeoff at ONA. The bottles did have a shelf life. All they were for was to help get the thing up through V2 with an engine out.

The total thrust was rather slight. It would take a lot of forward-firing rockets to have much effect on a 737 landing distance. Just not worthwhile.

HaveBlue your point is made by the Avco Lycoming engine. One version powers the BAe-146, a jet. One version powers the OV-1 Mohawk, a turboprop. The third version powers the CH47 Chinook, a helicopter. Turbofan, turboprop, turboshaft - all in one engine.

To further muddy the jet-powered waters, lots of turboprops gain measurable thrust from the exhaust. The Convair 240/340/440 had augmentor tubes that aided engine cooling but they too produced measurable thrust. All that from piston engine exhaust and exhausted cooling air.





Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6453 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3088 times:

If memory serves me well, then the JATO equipped Mexicana 727s had four bottles, two in each main wheel well.

Each bottle would develop something between 500 and 1000 lbs thrust for some 30 seconds.

They could cut a few hundred feet off the runway requirement. And that way convert an otherwise canceled flight on a hot day into a meaningful payload capability.

But turned 180 degrees and used for breaking after landing would be totally meaningless. If needed, a drag chute would be a lot more meaningful.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2948 times:

It is semantics, I was just pointing out that JATO is not an entirely incorrect naming, RATO is just more descriptive. As for jet powered helicopters the Fairey Rotodyne was jet powered. It is going back a bit but to consider a vehicle jet powered it typicall ~10-20% of the total thrust that needs to come from the jet flow (typically flow which has undergone heat addition, then expansion). Turboshafts, while operating on the Brayton cycle are not jet propelled.

SamClick, you are correct about the Convairs, also the P-51 achieved similar jet thrust from its exhaust and radiator cooling flow (the radiator actually qualifies as a ramjet). However, while the typical connotation is that a jet is an airbreather, the denotation does not specify it as such (rockets always carry all of their propellant on-board, or is it?). A rocket powered vehicle is a jet powered vehicle, but it is not sufficient to use the other way around. This is similar to a turbochager. A turbochager is a superchager (the full name being turbo-superchager), but a superchager is not necessarily a turbochager.

A final way of thinking about it, in chemically energized systems (those that burn fuel). A jet is a system where the propelling fluid is the working fluid, is the combusting fluid (the working fluid is the combusting fluid is what defines and internal combustion engine, e.g., the Brayton, Otto and Diesel cycles).

One last conundrum, how does a Liquid Air Cycle Rocket (LACE) fit into the whole system? Most people think of it as a rocket, but it is definitely airbreathing.


User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2744 times:

ONA's DC-9F's did have JATO. They had two pairs of rockets in wing-to-body fairings. These were the result of ONA having the LOGAIR contract for the DoD and Hill AFB was a place you didn't want an engince to burp on you. The rockets did have a shelf life and were fired when their due date was up. My father was an ONA DC-9 captain.

Also, Mexicana had JATO built in to some of their B727-200's for High/Hot conditions.

As for a 737 using rockets to slow down, why didn't they just use the arresting hook?



User currently offlineJetmek319 From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 199 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2565 times:

Evergreen used to park several JATO equipped DC9-30F's at the old Stapleton Airport in Denver. Haven't seen any at DIA recentlythough.




Never, ever moon a werewolf !!
User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2535 times:

Evergreen's DC-9-34F's are all ex-ONA. There's one flying for Airborne Express, N934F, I believe.

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2533 times:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ed Saldana
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Willam W. Sierra



Great shots. Interesting technology.

N


User currently offlineN1641 From United States of America, joined May 2000, 220 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2445 times:

maybe he confused it for the compressor stall, is that the correct term? I work at a military tower and I say 50-60% of the C-141s kick out a little flash of flame when they put the reversers on.

User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2561 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2290 times:

To get back to the original question, my guess was that most likely he saw a compressor stall, something that could happen to those old JT8D engines in a high powered reverse situation. That sometimes caused flames to come out the front of the engine, scaring the cr@p out of the people seated beside the engine intake. It was mostly hamless however.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
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