Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Can A Commercial Plane Roll?  
User currently offlineSquirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 15497 times:

This might be a stupid topic but I have never seen it done. In the following photo http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=627377 it states Here we have the A318, completing a roll, who said airliners couldn't go upside down! Did it really do a roll at the Airshow? Can other aircraft do the same thing? wouldn't there be too much stress on the aircraft; wings, ect.?

737, 757, 767, 747, a318, a319, a 320 ect ect ect. . .

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWestIndian425 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 15475 times:

Well, back in the 70's the Boeing 707 (Called 320 Dash 80 then) was doing a demonstration in Seattle when the chief test pilot performed a few barrel rolls to the amazement of the crowd, and the scared shock of Boeing's CEO.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Since you haven't heard of it, check out the Discovery Wings Channel at any point during the day just when a show is over (usually at 2-3 minutes before the hour). This is when they show historic moments in aviation. I'm sure you'll see it at some point during the day. They repeat it (and a few other events) all day, everyday.

Neil



God did not create aircraft pilots to be on the ground
User currently offlineDeltaffindfw From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1449 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 15419 times:


WestIndian425 - Tex Johnston performed the barrel roll in August 1955.


User currently offlineBeachthing From United States of America, joined May 2004, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 15386 times:

The test pilot of the dash-80 reminded the Boeing CEO that while doing a roll the plane maintained normal G levels...rolling is way less demanding than people think it is.

User currently offlineVoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 15352 times:

I was at Farnborough on the day that photo was taken and there was no A318 roll or upside down flight.
A `wing-over' (at the top of a climb) maybe but from where I was standing I don't think it went past 90 degrees.



` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineWestIndian425 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 15289 times:

Deltaffindfw

Oops! Sorry about that. I'm not sure why I though 70's.

Neil



God did not create aircraft pilots to be on the ground
User currently offlineMD11LuxuryLinr From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1385 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 15279 times:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Simon Nicholls



If you look at the photographer's comment, you'll see that he actually winked after his statement.. Obviously, he was joking..



Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
User currently offlineSquirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 15196 times:

I read the comment as well; it just sparked the question thats all. .

User currently offlineJetMechMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 380 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 15192 times:

Yes they can be rolled, just like any other aircraft. I personaly rode on a DC-9 test flight many years ago, where the aircraft was rolled.


"I get along great with nobody"~ Billy Idol
User currently offlineBlackbird1331 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1897 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 15148 times:

This is A.net. Mistakes are unforgiveable. I made a misake once and was sent to Siberia, but "it was closed".

If this plane was inverted, wouldn't we be looking at the "top" of the aircraft? Or did the photographer miss that part of the "roll"?



Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 10010 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 15077 times:

That a very nice photo and a very impressive "roll"  Wink/being sarcastic

A388


User currently offlineF4f3a From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14959 times:

The concorde has done a barrel roll.

Most modern airliners are theoretically capable but for obvious reasons they don't usually practice it.



Has anyone seen the footage of the ford tri-motor in the l930s doing continual loops at low level it is very impressive


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17186 posts, RR: 66
Reply 12, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14927 times:

A barell roll, when correctly executed, will maintain more or less 1 g on the airframe the whole time. This means no problems with structural stress or fuel feed. I don't see why any plane should not be able to handle this.

A one-point roll will be considerably more difficult, since it requires more manoeuvrable planes, and the g forces change during the roll. Most airliners will probably not be able to handle this.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineTasha From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14887 times:

Of course commercial aircraft can roll!! LOL!!!  Laugh out loud But they don't roll like a F-16 though!!  Big thumbs up

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


User currently offlineMoodyBlues From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 142 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14866 times:

As I understand it, like the 707 roll in the 50s (that footage does kick ass, BTW) Any plane is capable of the barrel roll if done correctly.

However, on modern planes w/ computerized flight controls, doesn't the software prevent excessive angles of bank, etc, which would make the roll impossible, not for the airframe, but the operator?




Southwest Airlines "A Symbol of Freedom"
User currently offlinePhilsquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14827 times:

No FBW Airbus, don't know enough about the 777, will roll beyond 67 degrees, IIRC. There is also pitch limits, I believe +30/-15. It's been a few years since I have flown the 320.

However, any "normal" control aircraft theoretically should be able to do a barrel roll. As previously stated, when done correctly, it is a 1 g maneuver.


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3674 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14798 times:

As I understand it, like the 707 roll in the 50s (that footage does kick ass, BTW) Any plane is capable of the barrel roll if done correctly.

IIRC another 707 crashed when a pilot attempted a barrel roll during a test flight - hence the reason they're generally not encouraged. I have read this accident report but am not sure where to locate it now (probably somewhere around here: http://amelia.db.erau.edu/ec/ntsbaar.htm#67") - apparently there was not enough evidence to definitively point to a barrel roll but it was obvious reading the report that that was what the investigators believed.

I'll keep searching for this report and if I find it I'll post a direct link...

However, on modern planes w/ computerized flight controls, doesn't the software prevent excessive angles of bank, etc, which would make the roll impossible, not for the airframe, but the operator?

On some modern planes, yeah. Depends on what you mean by "modern", though, too - some airplanes have bank angle warnings but no bank limiter. You won't find a bank limiter in a DC-9-50 flying with Northwest today, for example.

Airliners are designed to be inherently stable, though, which means if you invert one it will pitch down (or up, depending on your perspective) pretty rapidly and in some cases uncontrollably. This has happened many times in accidents where the equivalent of a barrel roll was performed in an uncommanded manner - the airplane may have been saved if only there was more altitude to play with, but it's nearly impossible to come out of a barrel roll at anywhere close to the same altitude you went into it with in almost any airliner I could think of. So generally once you get beyond a 90 degree bank angle it becomes practically impossible to either keep the nose up or even maintain altitude if you do - "flying upside down" is futile because the wings aren't shaped to generate lift in that orientation.

The stress of a barrel roll itself wouldn't kill an airframe but the stress of the airspeed you'd gain in the resulting dive, combined with the stress on the control surfaces required to keep a positive attitude would probably at least do some significant damage. The few examples I can think of where airplanes have entered rolls uncommanded and lived to tell about it (China Air off the California coast a while back, for example) have all resulted in major damage to the airplane.

In other words, airlines can roll, but it's not really something you want to do in any modern plane  Smile



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineAerobalance From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 4686 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14786 times:

Starlionblue,

Nice explanation. You saved me the trouble of typing it!  Big grin

On a self-gloss note, I've barrel-rolled a C152, C172, PA-28/235, Citabria, and Bormans' TF-51 after it was built by Square One Aviation.

Also single point rolled that same TF-51 over Lake Matthews, embarrassed to say that I didn't keep enough forward stick pressure on it and I let the nose come down on the last part of the roll. The G.I.B.S. was laughing at that as I was pulling out of that one!  Smile

To roll a big-a$$ commercial aircraft must be a hoot!



"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3674 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 14719 times:

Just a quick update to my post - it's been a long time since I've read about this incident so I may have confused a dutch roll 707 accident with a barrel roll (I didn't confuse the terms, just may have forgotten which type of roll was involved in the incident I had remembered). Anyway, I think this is the accident I had mentioned, though a dutch roll is a lot different than a barrel roll... still, note that the cause of the accident was bank angles that exceeded limits, leading to structural failure: http://aviation-safety.net/database/1959/591019-0.htm


I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 14674 times:

Though all of the above is true - wouldn't using a commercial plane in such a manner void your warranty  Smile? What I mean is that there are some planes that are certified for aerobatic maneuvers and some that are not. An airliner is not designed with the possibility of a deliberate roll in mind. Airline manufacturers are not (to my knowledge) required to show to the FAA and JAA that their products would survive such treatment. Something might not work.

What that means is that though most airliners could do it, it would be foolish to do this and to expect the same level of safety ordinarily expected in civil aviation. That level of safety can only be expected by those who use such planes to do what they were made and certified to do. That does not only go for planes, but to many other highly complex products as well.


User currently offlineJMChladek From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 14623 times:

At last check, the FBW Airbuses had bank limiters so they can't exceed about 35 degrees in a roll if I remember correctly. Although an A320 did get briefly inverted once during an aborted approach to Moscow (can't remember what airline it was). The pilot didn't like the pitch angle on climbout during the aborted approach and applied some foreward stick pressure to lower the nose. The computer responded by continuing to pitch the nose up until the plane practically flipped over on its back. It almost looked like a sloppy loop on the data recorder playback, but thankfully the plane righted itself. So it has happened with an Airbus, just not intentionally.

The 1 gee roll in a big jet is nothing new. Word is that somebody also did it in a B-47 jet bomber during the early 50s and that has a much more spindley looking wing then what the Dash 80 and 707 had. In addition to the inverted flight picture that was taken on the Dash 80 flight, there is also footage of it taken from the ground during the event shot by a spectator watching the boat races.


User currently offlineMxCtrlr From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2485 posts, RR: 35
Reply 21, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 14606 times:

The TWA 727 that broke Mach 1 did a barrel roll prior to the resulting Mach dive and survived (and was eventually returned to service with another carrier). Boeing builds them tough - The 707 (PA), 727 (TW) and 747 (China Airlines) have all broken Mach 1 and survived intact.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool



DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
User currently offlinePilotNtrng From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 897 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 14530 times:

Ok folks, let me play the idiot here, but we are talking about Roll not Barrel Roll. All Aircraft Roll, just like they Pitch. Roll and Pitch are terms for bank and accent/decent. Im just a Private Pilot, but even in the 172 and a Piper Warrior there are turn coordinators, attitude indicators, and etc. My point being, all aircraft roll.



Regards,

brad



Booooo Lois, Yaaaa Beer!!!
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days ago) and read 14442 times:

>>>I'll keep searching for this report and if I find it I'll post a direct link...

A more-detailed report...

http://www.avsaf.org/reports/US_reports/1950/1959.10.19_BoeingAirplaneCompany_Boeing707-227.pdf



[Edited 2004-07-29 09:22:46]

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (10 years 5 months 3 days ago) and read 14418 times:

A 73G has done a barrell-roll before. It was done on the 1st 73G built and that is now owned by WN. That barrell-roll was a stunt done at the Seattle SeaFair hydroplane race halftime show. I dont exactly remember the year but it was before WN took delivery of their 1st 73G.


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
25 Nudelhirsch : Philsquares has one in... Today's FBW-systems do not allow angles beyond a certain critical level. Actually (not intended to stir this up) the Habshei
26 Rotate : aloha, the comment for the pciture is just wrong, also have been at Farnborough this weekend, and the A318 did definetelky not a roll , it banked roug
27 Post contains links and images OPNLguy : >>>A 73G has done a barrell-roll before. It was done on the 1st 73G built and that is now owned by WN. That barrell-roll was a stunt done at the Seatt
28 AirframeAS : The -700 barrell-roll did happen. It was a PR stunt that Boeing did with this aircraft. I saw it being done on TV while watching the races. Trust me,
29 Post contains images Jaspike : I personally think, thoise comments shouzld be removed by the screeners, if the photographer is just obvious lying for getting more views ... He winke
30 Post contains images Voodoo : I took the `wink' as an A v. B poke* rather than a self-depracating one (*tho in retrospect it could have been a poke in either direction! ).
31 Post contains links Srbrenna : You can see the roll at http://www.alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm It is a humungous downoad (20Mb) though
32 Vzlet : A barrel roll may be a relatively benign, "low-G" maneuver, but it's not a "1-G" event as mentioned here and in similar threads. The constantly changi
33 EnoreFilho : Here's the link of a roll with a 737-300 in 1988: http://aviation-safety.net/database/1988/880929-0.htm This plane was hijacked, and to disarm the cri
34 Squirrel83 : I like that Video of the 707 Roll Very neat ~
35 Post contains images Manzoori : Folks, I was at Farnborough as well and can attest the aircraft did not roll.... and has been mentioned time and again please note the smilie in the c
36 Airplanepics : Ah, I love a.net. This really did make my day! You get so many people who jump to a conclusion before they have actually read the statement properly.
37 Post contains images Ben : As was explained in another thread on tech-ops, the Airbus did a series of tight turns almost overhead the crowd. That's why you get the illusion - si
38 Post contains images Jkw777 : Simon, I would like to say well done on this achievement. I would also like to say, unlike most of you, I actually know Simon.. And he has a great sen
39 Post contains links and images AmericanAirFan : A comment to add do planes roll!!! View Large View MediumPhoto © Simon Nicholls I know someone already mentioned the airshow but I have to brag o
40 Post contains images Airplanepics : I know someone already mentioned the airshow but I have to brag on that picture the guy who took it is a good photographer or maybe its just teh god p
41 Post contains links N685FE : Did you ever think a DC10 could do a roll? Here it is, it took me a while to fine the reference again. http://www.tailstrike.com/070494.htm. FX, flig
42 SlamClick : So it has been stated more than once that a 737 did a roll at Seafair in Seattle. It has been re-stated that it was a 737 and not a mistaken reference
43 Post contains images OPNLguy : >>>Where are the pictures of it? Wasn't it worthy of a picture? Didn't anyone think to carry a telephoto despite the fact that the boat races were way
44 Post contains images Mikec : I think it's really sad that some people are so quick to criticise photographers on here (fake photos, comments not to some peoples liking). I wonder
45 Post contains images SlamClick : Perhaps the photographer is blameless in this but the fact remains that this photo has been linked in two different threads (that I have seen, may be
46 Airplanepics : Hi, Also worthy of note, this is by far (29000+ views to 2nd place 10,000+) his most popular photo. That alone might make some suspicious. I doubt tha
47 SlamClick : Wouldn't you say it is the other way around? Your picture is top of the day because of the number of hits. Being to top of the last 24-48 hours would
48 Starlionblue : Actually (not intended to stir this up) the Habsheim Crash seemed to be partially caused by limits in the FBW That crash was caused by the pilot. A pl
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Can A Commercial Plane Roll?
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
How Do You Start A Commercial Plane? posted Sun Oct 8 2006 21:07:06 by Deaphen
Longest Commercial Plane posted Tue May 3 2005 06:55:03 by Vtdl
How Many Times Can A Pilot Fly A Plane In 1 Day? posted Fri Aug 5 2005 08:42:26 by Palladium
Can A Plane Really Take Off From A Steep Slope? posted Fri Apr 22 2005 02:50:58 by IslipWN
Can You Please Explain In Lay Terms-how will this plane go round? posted Sat Mar 12 2005 21:40:16 by Mirrodie
How Can The Giant Animal Travel By Plane? posted Sun Sep 21 2003 13:44:02 by Lf278
How Can Plane Ferry Engines? posted Tue Jan 23 2001 20:41:42 by Endofdays
Buddy Holly Plane Crash posted Tue Nov 7 2006 08:24:07 by Jcavinato
Plane Certification & Manufacture Location posted Thu Oct 26 2006 11:34:43 by Zarniwoop
If A Plane Flies For A Long Time... posted Mon Oct 23 2006 07:32:52 by United777atGU

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format