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No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?  
User currently offlineN229NW From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1914 posts, RR: 32
Posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5212 times:

Hi all,

Please forgive me if this has been answered (I couldn't find it from a search of this forum), or if it is a stupid question...

Are there certain aircraft, weather or load conditions in which the flaps are not set on takeoff? Many years ago I was on an Air France A300 Paris to LHR, sitting over the wings, and I noticed that we took off with no visible flap deployment. I was actually scared at the time, since this was just after the NW MD-80 crash in Detroit caused by flaps in wrong position on takeoff....

Anyway, we took off fine. And this never happened to me again on any other flight I can remember... till about 13 years later, I took a Lufthansa A300 from Berlin to Frankfurt. Once again, no visible flap on takeoff.

Both times this was an A300, with a full pax load, but a very low fuel load (short flights). Anyone have an explanation for me?

Thanks.


It's people like you what cause unrest!
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAJ From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2381 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5152 times:

Slats only takeoffs (no flaps) are approved on several widebody types, including the A300-600 and the Boeing 767-200.

Slats only departures increase the takeoff distance required, but improve the second segment climb performance.

Cheers!


User currently offlineBMAbound From Sweden, joined Nov 2003, 660 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5122 times:

I believe the Fokker 100 does the same?

johan



Altitude is Insurance - Get Insured
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5063 times:

Indeed it does.
.
.
.
.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineSaleem From Pakistan, joined Mar 2000, 194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5061 times:

This was also my questions and answered by an A300 Pilot, that A300 uses no flaps on takeoff. Further, one thing, for which I need confirmation that the Airbus A300 is the plane which does not have flexibility in its wings. So, A300's wings do not bend on Takeoff, so you cannot see wing flex on A300. Is it so??

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5059 times:

The A300 wings bend, like all aircraft wings. It's a matter of degree.

You could (in theory) make aircraft wings much more solid but this would necessitate more material and thus a heavier wing. Better to make them flex. If wings did not flex they would break.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5044 times:

Think I remember seeing "NO-FLAP TAKEOFF OK" stencilled on the upper side of the wing, so that it could be read out the passenger windows. Could this have been on an F-100? I assumed that it was to keep people from ringing the f/a calls or jumping up when takeoff started without flaps down.






Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineN229NW From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1914 posts, RR: 32
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5001 times:

Thanks...

Interesting. I wonder what factors allow one type of plane to take off this way and another not...The Fokker plane is obviously quite physically different from the 767 and A300...



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4979 times:

The A300 used an early supercritical airfoil. This was so much more efficient than predicted that several flap settings were deleted before entry into service.

My guess is that the F100 airfoil was bult so as not to need flaps on takeoff. IIRC it doesn't have slats either.

I would speculate that the fact that the 767-200 can and the -300 cannot do a no flaps takeoff depends on the relative weights of the airframe. Since the wing can support the -300 (and with a mod the -400) it can lift the -200 with relatively more ease, thus the no flaps takeoffs.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineAJ From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2381 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4906 times:

Starlionblue, it is more to do with the takeoff pitch attitude required, the -300 is geometry limited due to the extended fuselage so cannot achieve the required takeoff pitch.

A Boeing 767-200 with flap 1 requires a liftoff attitude of 11.1 degrees with a tailstrike attitude of 13.1 degrees. The -300 has a tailstrike attitude of 9.6 degrees, so you can see the problem!


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4884 times:

Starlionblue, it is more to do with the takeoff pitch attitude required, the -300 is geometry limited due to the extended fuselage so cannot achieve the required takeoff pitch.

Didn't think of that. Makes sense of course.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineJfkaua From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1000 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4878 times:

hmmm whats the 767-400 tailstrike and liftoff degree measures? and how do they fix it?

User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4681 times:

How about tailstrike comparing the A310 to the A300?

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4606 times:

Tailstrikes (or engine strikes for Concorde) are possible with basically any tricycle gear aircraft. So they put pitch restrictions in place on takeoff and landing. Pilots are trainable  Big grin

There is also a tailskid just in case.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineManburkert From China, joined Sep 2004, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4519 times:

Extending of flaps has a similar affect as increasing pitch by the cost of higher drag. For an efficient flight its mandatory to keep the drag as low as possible.
The other factor is the speed during t/o. When the Aircraft can reach the needed speed on the runway then every plane can start without extracted flaps.
But that means the limitation is the runway length, and also the tires are limited in their maximum speed.

Just my five cent.

Manfred



Manfred Burkert (ZSAM)
User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2991 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4377 times:

hmmm whats the 767-400 tailstrike and liftoff degree measures? and how do they fix it?

Taller landing gear. Boeing borrowed some engineers from McD, pre-merger, to accomplish this change.



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4361 times:

767-400

Tailstrike is at 9.4 degrees, oleos extended ours have hit at 9.1.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineMarS From Austria, joined Jul 2004, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 5 hours ago) and read 4183 times:

@Saleem: Just wanted to add a nice picture where you can see the wing flex of an A330.


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Photo © Ingo Lang



[Edited 2004-09-21 09:18:40]

User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3761 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4114 times:

In CRW, I know that the dash 8 100's ad 200's rarely use flaps, and if they do so they retract them shortly and i mean very shortly after liftoff. I think they come up with the gear.

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4101 times:

@Saleem: Just wanted to add a nice picture where you can see the wing flex of an A330.

In the great A.nut tradition of adding pics at the least excuse Big grin


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Photo © Craig Boyes
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Photo © Alex G.-Denicourt - Contrails Aviation Photography



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Photo © Joe Pries - A.T. TEAM




"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
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