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Topic: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2007-11-20 23:38:59 and read 32767 times.

Feedback always appreciated.

Trip Report: 025
Flight Category: J-ILR (See Report End)
Date: 10-Aug-07
SDT/SAT/Delay: 1015/2050/09:35 hrs (Delayed 01:00)
Flight: Air France AF 994, 5410 miles
Routing: JFK-CDG
Aircraft: 77W
Seat: Business ("Le Espace Affaires"), 8A

I > Background:

Ok, I am back! After taking a sabbatical from trip reports for 5 months, here is the first installation from a series of trip reports. Mid-August to mid-November 2007 saw the craziest of my travel plans. 69 flights totalling 175,028 kms on 35 airlines, visiting 49 airports in 34 countries in all 6 continents. And, here is the best part ...all of them were part of a 4month break from life ... pure vacation, and pure food for the mind, body, and soul. Together, they mounted to 21/2 round-the-worlds that was truly insane. As usual, all long haul flights were on Business or First Class; short haul was on Economy Class.

As I have tried for A.Net audience in the past, several of the reports will be firsts on A.Net. These include either first time airline coverages, routes, airports, flights, or countries. This report on Air France´s (AF) CDG-JNB will be the first for the daytime AF flight. Air France introduced this second daily nonstop flight to JNB earlier in the year, and my travel agent thought it would work as a good connection from JFK´s DL flight. Since I had not flown AF´s 77W, I welcomed the opportunity ... though, I was not looking forward to transitting via my least favorite airport in the world ... CDG. The reason for the trip was to visit a friend in Jo'Burg.

II > Pre-Flight:

a) Before Airport:
Unlike many other A.Netters, I decided to do a piecemeal reservation stringing on several round trips, one-ways, and open jaws. Booking for the CO/DL/AF combo was done using a reliable travel agent here in Caracas. They found a pretty neat deal for CCS-IAH-EWR/JFK-CDG-JNB with the CO segments in Y. To chose my seat assignment, I called AF and was promptly assigned the requested seat at the back of the J class cabin ... seat 8A. I was not impressed by the fact that this could not be done on Air France website at www.airfrance.com.

b) At Airport:
Unfortunately, CDG still remains my least favorite airport. I arrived from an excellent Delta flight and as I expected, we were remotely docked to a far off stand. While the bus trip to the terminal was long, it was not as bad as a few months back when we docked near the cargo hold, the driver got lost, and I missed my connection. Arrival into terminal 2E should have been fairly straightforward as the initial flight monitor said I was also departing from 2E. However, a second flight monitor at connections said I was departing from 2F ... so I took the bus to 2F only to be told that the gate had changed back to 2E ... so another bus, another security check by super rude agents ... and then I was back inside terminal 2E. I needed to check my email ... but the lounge with the internet was closed, and the second lounge did not have internet access. Now it got interesting ... a young black woman was deep in sleep in one of the couch-chairs with her leg up on the table. One of the lounge attendants rudely woke her up and told her that she could not put her leg up, and directed her to one of the cubicle spaces with a reclining chair to sleep. The poor dazed girl did so immediately ... now comes the worst part ... the lounge attendant (in French) went on to chat with another agent on the state of world affairs when "black imbecils are allowed entry"! WTF! Given my usual sensitivity to such racist behavior, I politely asked for her name and have already dispatched a letter to CDG management. Not that I expect my letter to change this kind of completely unacceptable attitude.

Boarding was from the very far gate E65. I thought I was the last one to board as the gate area was deserted and final boarding calls were being made. Later on, we waited for an hour as AF waited for several passengers from the connecting MAD flight.

Upon boarding, an attendant greeted me and took me to my seat. She was surprised that I had no coats to hang, and I was surprised that the load was only 10%! What was interesting and sad was that an old woman (80 years+) in front J was trying to put her small bag up. Since she was short, she was having a hard time reaching for the bin. The 2 AF FAs (haha, thats ironically a palindrome I just realized) just stood there watching her! I went and helped and couldnt fondly remember the IC agent on a flight I reviewed (LINK). Anyways, back to the loads ... seriously, it was 10% ... the entire back of the Business cabin from rows 6 to 10 was empty! There was no one in First Class, and Economy load was a more respectable 70%. It will be interesting to see how this second frequency does for AF. Frankly, I was surprised as I had expected this flight to be a good connection for the bunch of flights from the Americas and Europe.

Airport - External:

NONE

Check-In:

NONE

Airport - Internal:

(Departure Board: Was trying to show that flight displayed 2F, but terminal of actual departure was 2E.)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/001-13.jpg

Scenes of the tarmac:

NONE

Lounge (Air France)

Not impressive at all. Read what happened with the usual racist AF personnel at CDG. Pretty disgusting. No internet, and the closure of the other lounge made it worse.

(Settling down with a cafe and a Spanish newspaper)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/002-13.jpg

Boarding:

(Nice terminal 2E boarding area. Plenty of space)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/004-13.jpg

(Boarding door. No queues as I was one of the last to board)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/005-13.jpg

III> In-Flight:

a) Service Schedule + Impressions:
At the gate, champagne or orange juice was served. After take-off, cold towels, and then an assortment of drinks and biscuit was served. Lunch was served 2.5 hours into the flight. Finally, dinner was served about 1.5 hours prior to arrival at JNB. Amenity kits were waiting in front of the seat; and, I must say, were really nice! I love the shoe bag they include. Very useful!

b) Aircraft + Seats:
The Boeing 777-300ER is an amazing aircraft, and I can never really lose amazement at the huge engines. I was not a fan of AF´s business class seats by any means. The 176 degrees lie flat was thoroughly uncomfortable, and with AF´s layout, I felt extremely cramped. I shudder to think how horrible it would be to have paid a full J fare and be on those seats on a full flight ... do they really have to be 2-3-2 seating?! Ok, so let us deconstruct the seat a bit more ... in an upright position, the seat is fine. However, the moment you begin to recline, it becomes extremely tight. On several occasions, my leg would just get stuck ... and I am NOT tall by any means. Finally, as mentioned, the seat is uncomfortable in the sleep position. I mean, I do like some lie-flat seats ... like SQ old Raffles, but AF seemed definitely pre-historic.

Aircraft:

NONE

Views from Aircraft:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/006-13.jpg

Seat Leg-Room:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/007-13.jpg

Seat Recline + Angle View:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/008-13.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/009-13.jpg

(Various positions when your feet just get stuck)

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/010-12.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/011-12.jpg

(And the uncomfortable semi-recline position)

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/013-13.jpg

(Side view. See how cramped the cabin is)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/012-13.jpg

(Front of seat)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/014-13.jpg

(Seat Controls and arm)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/015-13.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/036-1.jpg

Cabin:

(Very empty rear J cabin)

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/016-13.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/017-12.jpg

c) Meal + Beverage:

Air France has 2 meal service on this flight. A "traditional service" which is sort of a brunch, and then a pre-arrival meal service" (dinner). Service began soon after take off with beverages and some really tasty beverages. The menu card read as follows:

For my lunch, I chose the absolutely decadent and delicious foie gras as my Hors d' Oeuvre. Unfortunately, the meal service went downhill from there. The fillet of cod had ZERO flavour. It was as if someone went and caught a fish and just put it with some rice. Moreover, the fish was burnt on one side ... I think you can see from the picture. I skipped the cheese and the dessert in order to maintain my very toned body ... hehe. I must say though, the dessert tray looked absolutely delicious. Given the 2 FAs were serving from the trolley, I decided against taking a picture.

Ok, here is where things get worse. So I was starving by the time dinner came (and I had made several runs to the galley where an assortment of self-help drinks and foods were on offer) and was looking forward to my Moroccon styled chicken (see menu). Here is how the conversation went:

FA: "Monseiur, what would you like for Dinner?"
ME: "Madame, I would love the Moroccon styled chicken."
FA: "Of course” (Searches for it)."
FA: "I am sorry Monseiur. We are out of the chicken."
ME: "That is too bad. I was really looking forward to it. What do you have?"
FA: "Let me see. Oh I am sorry Monseiur, we have no meals left for you."

WTF! I mean. This is the most incredible thing I have EVER heard while traveling in J or F. Ok, how the hell can you run out of your ENTIRE J class catering option? How the hell can the FA NOT KNOW this? How the hell does she actually come all the way, and after looking, suddenly figure out there is nothing to eat? How the hell does this happen on a flight with 10% load?! And the worst is she made NO apologies. Nothing. It was like ... a matter of fact, and thats it. Here I was paying a pretty decent sum of money and being told there is nothing to eat! Oh, and there is NO Hors d' Oeuvres left as well?!! WTF! So Madame continued giving me a blank stare and did nothing. She just stood there confused. So anyways (given my hunger, and controlling my anger), I requested her for the food options from the Y cabin or the crew meal or something. Something clicked in her ditzy head, and she said, "Of course Monseiur!"

Anyways, as I pondered the incident, I began to laugh at how incredibly sad the whole thing was. But the final act in the saga was not done yet ... she brought me 2 meals (see picture, shrink wrapped) ... which I do admit were tasty ...¦ but in the final act, she gave me utensils which were ALL nasty. I mean, USED utensils. When was the last time you flew a premium product (or Y product for that matter) and got USED utensils. See my picture. And again, NO apologies or expression of horror when I pointed this out.

Anyways, I was done with this flight. It was just horrible!

(El Menu: Not that it made a difference)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/018-10.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/019-10.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/020-10.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/021-10.jpg

(Welcome Champagne: Pretty good!)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/022-10.jpg

(Some snacks)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/023-9.jpg

(Hors d' Oeuvre: excellent foei gras)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/024-9.jpg

(Main: Poor cod)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/025-9.jpg

(Tea)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/026-4.jpg

(Drink into the flight)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/027-4.jpg

(Bar at the back with food and drinks: Pretty good collection)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/028-3.jpg

(Drink and News)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/029-3.jpg

(Oh No, where is my food?: J class food missing!)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/030-3.jpg

(And that nasty utensil)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/031-3.jpg

d) Inflight Entertainment:
Air France has an average IFE. The screens are average, and the selection of movies are also average. However, they were NOT AVOD and the entire section called "WORLD CINEMA" had no films in it. I forget how many total films there were ... around 10 I believe. Mostly crappy ... and complemented by a crappy "noise canceling" head set. AFs inflight magazine though was pretty good, and there was a HUGE selection of international newspaper and newsmagazines. Surprisingly, lots of English reading materials ... which is weird given AFs natural anti-English stance.

(IFE: Poor headset)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/032-2.jpg

(IFE)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/033-2.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/034-2.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/035-1.jpg

(Moving Maps: Only just over northern Africa)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/037-1.jpg

(It’s a LONG flight)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/038-1.jpg

(In-flight magazines, Boarding Passes, etc.)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/040-1.jpg

e) Crew:

Absolutely unequivocally one of the worst crews I have ever had. Starting from the fact that they never helped the poor woman, the FAs seemed to be doing the few passengers a favour. Service came with absolutely zero smile and no eye contact, and was done with the impression that it was jail-time for the FAs. Besides the famous meal incident, I was amused that AF probably has the only J class crew that places the hot towel on the seat handle, and not on the passengers stretched out hand. Oh, and what the hell do they do on a flight with 10% load? I NEVER saw them between service runs. EVER. No water runs. Nothing. Though, upon ringing the attendant button, I did get a FA in 8 minutes. That is I think my best ever with AF J!

IV> Post-Flight:

JNB arrival was pretty smooth. All I wanted to do was get off the damn flight. I had enough of AF. JNB customs was fast … waiting for bags took forever.

(JNB Airport Arrivals)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/041-1.jpg

V> Impressions + Scores:

Do I really have to spell out what my overall impression was  Smile? I think A.Netters are smart to figure this one out. From the horrific lounge incident, to the poor CDG ops, to the crew performance, to the abysmal food (oh wait, there was NONE), to the poor IFE, to the cramped 2x3x2 seating, there really was NOTHING that I could say in support of AF. I have flown them enough ... and each time, I have been constantly disappointed. I spent a lot of money on this ticket, and it is clear that AF does not value my business. Next time on CDG-JNB, I am going to try Afriqiyah or Timbuktu Air. At least, I am not going to get some pretentious service. Absolutely recommend against AF when given a choice.

Reservation: 6.0
Check-In: N/A
Lounge: 1.0 (WORST EVER)
Boarding: 8.0
Seat: 6.0
Aircraft Overall Ambience: 5.0
IFE: 6.0
Crew Service: 1.0 (WORST EVER)
Food: 1.0 (WORST EVER)
Beverages: 8.0
Amenity Kits + Others Freebies: 9.0 (BEST EVER)
Disembarkation: 7.0
On-Time Record: 6.0
OVERALL IMPRESSION: 5.33*
(Pre-flight average of all-reviews: 6.34)
Lowest Score YET for J product reviewed

(Scores are based on comparison with other airlines in THAT class of service - No comparison of Y vs. F for example)

VI> Other Trip Reports:

1/ Avianca: BOG-LIM: 07/06/06: 7.09pts: Y-IMR
2/ Air Tran: EWR-MDW: 08/02/06: 6.73pts: Y-DMR
3/ West Jet: YYC-YVR: 09/05/06: 7.14pts: Y-DMR
4/ Air Canada: YYZ-YVR: 09/02/06: 5.92pts: Y-DLR
5/ Air Canada: ALB-YYZ: 09/01/06: 5.88pts: Y-ISR
6/ Singapore Airlines: EWR-SIN: 09/20/06: 7.81pts: J-ILR
7/ Adam Air: SIN-CGK: 09/22/06: 6.04: Y-ISR
8/ Valuair: CGK-SIN: 09/22/06: 5.04: Y-ISR
9/ Spice Jet: CCU-DEL: 09/25/06: 6.67: Y-DMR
10/ Indian: DEL-CCU: 09/26/06: 7.25: Y-DMR
11/ Air Sahara: CCU-BOM: 09/28/06: 4.42: Y-DMR
12/ Air Deccan: IXZ-CCU: 10/07/06: 5.75: Y-DMR
13/ Alliance: CCU-IXA: 10/08/06: 7.54: Y-DSR
14/ Kingfisher: IXA-GAU: 10/08/06: 8.21: Y-DSR
15/ Indigo: GAU-CCU: 10/08/06: 6.54: Y-DSR
16/ Singapore Airlines: CCU-SIN: 10/11/06: 5.88: J-IMR
17/ Air Canada: ICN-YYZ: 10/12/06: 7.13: J-ILR
18/ Delta AirLines: SEA-JFK: 11/24/06: 7.17: F-DLR
19/ USA 3000: PUJ-BDL: 01/06/07: 5.96: Y-IMR
20/ Viva Aerobus: CUN-JFK: 02/20/07: 4.58: Y-DSR
21/ Jet Blue: CUN-JFK: 02/20/07: 5.96: Y-IMR
22/ SAS Norge/Braathens: OSL-AES: 05/26/07: 5.75: Y-DSR
23/ TAP Air Portugal: OSL-LIS: 05/29/07: 5.46: Y-IMR
24/ Delta AirLines: JFK-CDG: 08/09/07: 7.85: J-ILR


(Note on Codes: Y - Economy, J - Business, F - First :: I/D - International/Domestic :: SR/MR/LR - Short/Medium/Long Haul :: I have designed these codes so people dont believe my scores are comparing apples and oranges)

VII> Other Pictures:

(Awesome useful amenity kit)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/042.jpg

(Enroute)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/abrelosojosnow/043.jpg

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: LHboyatDTW
Posted 2007-11-20 23:53:31 and read 32767 times.

Very detailed TR

I'm sorry about the whole food incident. I've heard of so many people raving about AF being so great, but this makes me think I'd rather give my business to KL or LH instead.

How is connecting in CDG though? My parents are looking into flying AF to CPH next spring and this is all the more reason for me to convince them connecting via AMS or FRA or just flying SK.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: LACA773
Posted 2007-11-21 00:28:47 and read 32767 times.

Hola Abrelosojos,
Thanks for the very very informative TR's !! What a remarkable contrast in the inflight product & service you received on DL vs AF!!!
Will you be writing a letter to AF management about your horror experiences on this flight? Gosh. I'm at a loss for words. With the filthy utensils and that they didn't cater the dinner portion of your flight alone I would hope you'll net a refund or a complimentary J class ticket for a trip of similar length. Please let us know what happens.

Even by the looks of the amentity kits and the way you had them laid out, DL's actually looks like it came with more skin care products than the AF one did? What was the branding of the products in the kits? I'm a big fan of the kits (collect them).

Best
LACA773

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: 5YKQW
Posted 2007-11-21 00:35:40 and read 32767 times.

C'est la vie! May be the crew were pissed off in serving holiday makers while they were on duty. Have yu flown KQ? It would be interesting to benchmark. However, AF flight must have been a one -off.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: MIAspotter
Posted 2007-11-21 02:41:52 and read 32767 times.



Quoting 5YKQW (Reply 3):
C'est la vie! May be the crew were pissed off in serving holiday makers while they were on duty

Well that´s not the attitude anyways, they are getting paid to do their job no matter if the passengers are going on holidays, business, or whatever, does not make any sense to me.

A TR on KQ could indeed be interesting, i´ve heard nice comments on their service.

MIAspotter

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Triple7man
Posted 2007-11-21 06:10:49 and read 32767 times.

Yes I would like to hear what AF response is. When you write to them, you should include all details and names of the personnel involved. This will help them in evaluating this.
I don't know what AF's compensation policy is, but usually the airlines give you travel vouchers good toward another ticket or if you are a member of their frequent flier program (and an elite member at that) they will usually bonus your account with extra miles. Hate to spoil things for you, but a refund (for a used ticket, although I'm sure you felt it wasn't worth it) or a free J class ticket are not the usual means of compensation. AF got you to where you needed to go and that was their obligation, still with a J class ticket you are entitled to MUCH better service than you received.
And hopefully you will be able to write another report of much better service on another airline.
The only good thing I saw about your trip was the aircraft a 777.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: SASDC8
Posted 2007-11-21 06:57:13 and read 32767 times.

Thanks for a really nice report Smile

Interesting to see that DL did so well in your great comparison scale Smile I think that the AF incidents, both in the lounge and in the air, are among the worst that I have ever heard about any airline. Totally unacceptable! AF seriously needs to get their act together.

Stein

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Davescj
Posted 2007-11-21 07:28:57 and read 32767 times.



Quoting LHboyatDTW (Reply 1):
How is connecting in CDG though?

In my experinece? NOT GOOD

Dude--

You should have asked for an F meal LOL. Though as no one there,probably nothing to get.

I agree with Stein, a letter to AF is in order. That is SAD service in the J cabin.

Dave

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2007-11-21 07:35:16 and read 32767 times.

Thanks a alot for your comments. I really appreciate them, and it makes me want to write more.

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Reply 1):
I'm sorry about the whole food incident. I've heard of so many people raving about AF being so great, but this makes me think I'd rather give my business to KL or LH instead.

= Having flown on all of them a lot, I think KL and LH are significantly better than AF. I have heard most of AF praises coming from FB/loyalty members. Usually those who dont have allegiance to AF are more reserved in their praises in my opinion.

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Reply 1):
How is connecting in CDG though? My parents are looking into flying AF to CPH next spring and this is all the more reason for me to convince them connecting via AMS or FRA or just flying SK.

= DUDE! FLY VIA AMS! It is a no brainer. AMS is one of the BEST airports in Europe to transit through (along with ZRH and BRU). CDG is a total nightmare. The good thing though is that there are plenty of CPH flights - so if your parents miss one, there is always another one coming up. However, transiting through CDG continue to be a nightmare. The worst customer service agents (and I have seen my share of the world) and the unpredictability of gate usage translates to the need for a really long MCT.

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 2):
Thanks for the very very informative TR's !! What a remarkable contrast in the inflight product & service you received on DL vs AF!!!

= Ya. I think the DL product provided a stark reminder of how poor AF really was.

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 2):
Will you be writing a letter to AF management about your horror experiences on this flight? Gosh. I'm at a loss for words. With the filthy utensils and that they didn't cater the dinner portion of your flight alone I would hope you'll net a refund or a complimentary J class ticket for a trip of similar length. Please let us know what happens.

= I wrote a letter to management about the racist incident in the lounge. As I had predicted, its been 3+ months and I have heard nothing. Honestly though, I am NOT big about seeking compensation. I agree with Triple7man that they got me to my destination in my class of service and that meets their contractual obligation. When things like this usually happen, I vote with my wallet. I usually spend near a 7 figure USD amount (not kidding) on flights for work and pleasure each year ... and I live in CCS ... they are definitely losing my business when I need them 3-4 times a month to fly CCS-Europe-India/Africa.

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 2):
What was the branding of the products in the kits? I'm a big fan of the kits (collect them).

= I will go home and check them. I collect kits too  Smile.

Quoting 5YKQW (Reply 3):
May be the crew were pissed off in serving holiday makers while they were on duty. Have yu flown KQ? It would be interesting to benchmark



Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 4):
Well that´s not the attitude anyways, they are getting paid to do their job no matter if the passengers are going on holidays, business, or whatever, does not make any sense to me.

= I agree with MIAspotter ... that must have been a super shoddy excuse. 1/3 of the world travels for holidays ... so 1/3 of the time you would be pissed? Besides, JNB flights (unlike CPT) has a lot of premium business demand. What I found horrid was that this was AF crew performance on a flight with 10% load in J. Imagine a full flight!

Quoting 5YKQW (Reply 3):
However, AF flight must have been a one -off.

= I wish it was true. I have had other horrible experiences with them ... the only reason to take AF instead of KQ on this route was because my friend (AF fan) promised AF had changed for the better.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 4):
A TR on KQ could indeed be interesting, i´ve heard nice comments on their service.

= Your wish is my command. A KQ TR should be coming up within a week.

Quoting Triple7man (Reply 5):
Yes I would like to hear what AF response is. When you write to them, you should include all details and names of the personnel involved. This will help them in evaluating this.
I don't know what AF's compensation policy is, but usually the airlines give you travel vouchers good toward another ticket or if you are a member of their frequent flier program (and an elite member at that) they will usually bonus your account with extra miles. Hate to spoil things for you, but a refund (for a used ticket, although I'm sure you felt it wasn't worth it) or a free J class ticket are not the usual means of compensation. AF got you to where you needed to go and that was their obligation, still with a J class ticket you are entitled to MUCH better service than you received.
And hopefully you will be able to write another report of much better service on another airline.
The only good thing I saw about your trip was the aircraft a 777.

= Yes. You would think that they would care about their J pax. The problem is that AF has become too big for its own good. On many routes (Africa, Latin Am), they face little competition and no incentive to improve. Worst, their horrible attitude is now being felt on the usually MUCH MUCH better KLM.

Quoting SASDC8 (Reply 6):
Interesting to see that DL did so well in your great comparison scale

= Yup. Trust me, I had to pinch and remind myself that this was an American carrier!

Quoting SASDC8 (Reply 6):
I think that the AF incidents, both in the lounge and in the air, are among the worst that I have ever heard about any airline. Totally unacceptable! AF seriously needs to get their act together.

= Well. I have had worse experiences on the ground and in Y. But for a J, "premium" product, this is probably the worst service I have had in over 2,000 flights. I will NEVER forget the incident in the AF CDG lounge.

Cheers,
A.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2007-11-21 08:06:19 and read 32767 times.

I'm sorry to hear that, mate. I fly ten times a year with AF, and never had any problems of that kind.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Semsem
Posted 2007-11-21 08:17:40 and read 32767 times.

If it happened to me I would ask for Bonus Miles or a partial credit / refund. You deserve something. I agree that CDG is not a pleasant airport. I really liked Madrid. As to AF I have to say that their Y product has been excellent compared to many other airlines.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2007-11-21 09:47:14 and read 32767 times.



Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
Arrival into terminal 2E should have been fairly straightforward as the initial flight monitor said I was also departing from 2E. However, a second flight monitor at connections said I was departing from 2F ... so I took the bus to 2F only to be told that the gate had changed back to 2E

Why taking the bus from 2E to 2F? It's right in front!

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2007-11-21 09:59:54 and read 32767 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 9):
I'm sorry to hear that, mate. I fly ten times a year with AF, and never had any problems of that kind.

= I am glad things have been positive for you.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 11):
Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
Arrival into terminal 2E should have been fairly straightforward as the initial flight monitor said I was also departing from 2E. However, a second flight monitor at connections said I was departing from 2F ... so I took the bus to 2F only to be told that the gate had changed back to 2E

Why taking the bus from 2E to 2F? It's right in front!

= Well, I made the serious mistake of listening to ADP staff! Worst was that I think the bus did an entire loop before going to 2F. Good planespotting though.

Cheers,
A.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: JetSetter629
Posted 2007-11-21 10:17:30 and read 32767 times.

Wow so sorry to hear about your poor flight!

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
Mid-August to mid-November 2007 saw the craziest of my travel plans. 69 flights totalling 175,028 kms on 35 airlines, visiting 49 airports in 34 countries in all 6 continents. And, here is the best part ...all of them were part of a 4month break from life ... pure vacation, and pure food for the mind, body, and soul

I would love to see your flightmemory page! Lucky you!

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: IDISA
Posted 2007-11-21 10:23:30 and read 32767 times.



Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
CDG still remains my least favorite airport.

Mine too...last time I've been to CDG I was in transit from KEF to MXP, don't remember exactly which terminal was but there was no air conditioning (and it was 30°C outside), lot of garbage anywhere, people smoking out of the smoking rooms, very very disgusting place to wait 4 hours your next flight...

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
the driver got lost, and I missed my connection

Man, I' can't believe it!!! That's just crazy!!

I am surprised to see such a cramped cabin, it seems just a LITTLE more than BA World Traveller Plus, which is still Y.
Also the ambient light seem so gloomy and poor, very sad ambience.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
Oh I am sorry Monseiur, we have no meals left for you."

Totally out of mind!!!!! I mean, how can you run out of catering in a 10% J load factor?? FA are supposed to take care of catering forniture before departure checking the correct number of meals first and then verify that special meals are also boarded. It's really incredible and I'm speachless...

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
I mean, USED utensils.

Man, that would have been too much for me and I wanted to get my hands on the FA. It would have been interesting asking to speak to the Captain after the flight and pointing him out what happened.

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Reply 1):
How is connecting in CDG though?

A real NIGHTMARE!!

Ciao
IDISA

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2007-11-21 10:37:41 and read 32767 times.



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 12):
Well, I made the serious mistake of listening to ADP staff! Worst was that I think the bus did an entire loop before going to 2F. Good planespotting though.

The bus does indeed a loop.

CDG is a strange airport anyway. Terminal 1 is a mess and the car park is a complete maze. Long term car parks in CDG are indicated as "Px". WTF does "Px" mean?!

Terminal 2 (and especially 2F) is much better though, with the High-speed train station located at 5 minutes walk. Very handy  Smile

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: DavidkunzVIE
Posted 2007-11-21 10:53:08 and read 32767 times.



Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
black imbecils are allowed entry

Whoa!

AF seems like THE airline to avoid...

Thanks for the report, very eye-opening.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Davescj
Posted 2007-11-21 11:51:07 and read 32767 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 11):
Why taking the bus from 2E to 2F? It's right in front!



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 12):
Well, I made the serious mistake of listening to ADP staff! Worst was that I think the bus did an entire loop before going to 2F. Good planespotting though.

Yeah, I've had the same experience. Was told to get on the bus.....had a 50 min connection, was worried the whole time I'd never make it in time once I saw the bus route.

Dave

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: BA319-131
Posted 2007-11-21 12:12:26 and read 32767 times.

What a read, really never thought AF would provide such a poor service, one hopes this is one of a small number of poor flights people have with them - that said, I never fly AF so what do I care?

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
Flight: Air France AF 994, 5410 miles
Routing: JFK-CDG

- You sure? Smile

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
Unfortunately, CDG still remains my least favorite airport

- Agreed, dirty, messy and just no organisation at all.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
now comes the worst part ... the lounge attendant (in French) went on to chat with another agent on the state of world affairs when "black imbecils are allowed entry"! WTF! Given my usual sensitivity to such racist behavior, I politely asked for her name and have already dispatched a letter to CDG management. Not that I expect my letter to change this kind of completely unacceptable attitude.

- Amazing, trully speechless!

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
with AF´s layout, I felt extremely cramped. I shudder to think how horrible it would be to have paid a full J fare and be on those seats on a full flight ... do they really have to be 2-3-2 seating?!

- Nasty, should be 2-2-2.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
Oh I am sorry Monseiur, we have no meals left for you."

- Never heard such a thing, that is just pathetic!

Wow, an amazing read.

Regards

Mark

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Rdwootty
Posted 2007-11-21 12:35:49 and read 32767 times.

As a foody I think that the crew ate all the Dinner meals whilst they moaned about the 10% load ,as really they wanted a 0% load.Then they realized and thought they had better look surprised when they could not find the meal!! It is interesting that you did not receive a reply from the Airport but then again it is a French operated service so what do you expect??? They are, as someone once said, a Shower just a real shower.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2007-11-21 12:37:43 and read 32767 times.



Quoting DavidkunzVIE (Reply 16):
Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
black imbecils are allowed entry

Whoa!

AF seems like THE airline to avoid...

Thanks for the report, very eye-opening.

Wait wait wait, please don't make this AF bastard a generality for the company. Most likely you fell on a racist prick, but please don't conclude that all AF members are like that. Because it's simply not true.

Thanks  pray 

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2007-11-21 13:04:49 and read 32767 times.

Thanks a lot for all the comments thus far.

Quoting JetSetter629 (Reply 13):
I would love to see your flightmemory page! Lucky you!

= Ya, its cool  . Though, I do have some big gaps - like never having flown within Russia, never having flown from South America to Africa, and very few intra-African flights. Its a big world out there ... but I am trying to cover it!

Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 18):
Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
Flight: Air France AF 994, 5410 miles
Routing: JFK-CDG

- You sure?

= LOL. Um, yes … I am sure dammit  . This is why I should not write TRs at 3,00am!

Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 18):
Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
now comes the worst part ... the lounge attendant (in French) went on to chat with another agent on the state of world affairs when "black imbecils are allowed entry"! WTF! Given my usual sensitivity to such racist behavior, I politely asked for her name and have already dispatched a letter to CDG management. Not that I expect my letter to change this kind of completely unacceptable attitude.

- Amazing, trully speechless!



Quoting DavidkunzVIE (Reply 16):
Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
black imbecils are allowed entry

Whoa!

AF seems like THE airline to avoid...

Thanks for the report, very eye-opening.

= Yup. Its amazing in’nit?! And, the worst part is that AF management will do nothing about it. This is not the first time something insane like this happened.

Quoting Davescj (Reply 17):
Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 12):
Well, I made the serious mistake of listening to ADP staff! Worst was that I think the bus did an entire loop before going to 2F. Good planespotting though.

Yeah, I've had the same experience. Was told to get on the bus.....had a 50 min connection, was worried the whole time I'd never make it in time once I saw the bus route.



Quoting IDISA (Reply 14):
Quoting LHboyatDTW (Reply 1):
How is connecting in CDG though?

A real NIGHTMARE!!



Quoting IDISA (Reply 14):
Mine too...last time I've been to CDG I was in transit from KEF to MXP, don't remember exactly which terminal was but there was no air conditioning (and it was 30°C outside), lot of garbage anywhere, people smoking out of the smoking rooms, very very disgusting place to wait 4 hours your next flight...



Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 18):
Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
Unfortunately, CDG still remains my least favorite airport

- Agreed, dirty, messy and just no organisation at all.

= You guys. Trust me. I feel the pain! CDG is the worst airport in the world - and I am not just comparing it with the developed nations. I prefer transiting in (say) Tripoli than Paris.

Quoting Rdwootty (Reply 19):
As a foody I think that the crew ate all the Dinner meals whilst they moaned about the 10% load ,as really they wanted a 0% load.Then they realized and thought they had better look surprised when they could not find the meal!! It is interesting that you did not receive a reply from the Airport but then again it is a French operated service so what do you expect??? They are, as someone once said, a Shower just a real shower.



Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 18):
Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
Oh I am sorry Monseiur, we have no meals left for you."

- Never heard such a thing, that is just pathetic!



Quoting IDISA (Reply 14):
Totally out of mind!!!!! I mean, how can you run out of catering in a 10% J load factor?? FA are supposed to take care of catering forniture before departure checking the correct number of meals first and then verify that special meals are also boarded. It's really incredible and I'm speachless...



Quoting IDISA (Reply 14):
Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
I mean, USED utensils.

Man, that would have been too much for me and I wanted to get my hands on the FA. It would have been interesting asking to speak to the Captain after the flight and pointing him out what happened.

= You really think the crew cared? I don’t think the Captain would have. I just don’t get it though. I mean, what is more incredible … NO meals in J cabin with a 10% load or the response of the FA!

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 20):
Wait wait wait, please don't make this AF bastard a generality for the company. Most likely you fell on a racist prick, but please don't conclude that all AF members are like that. Because it's simply not true.

Thanks

= Of course I am sure that not all AF members are like that. However, if you read the posts from a lot of non-French people in the past, my experience is not a one-off. It is sad. But I don’t think many people in the French service industry understand the concept of a global world. However, that is NOT the topic of this thread.

Cheers,
A.

[Edited 2007-11-21 13:16:14]

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: CO777ER
Posted 2007-11-21 13:12:42 and read 32767 times.

Well for what its worth, AF ran out of Y meals on a CDG - LAX flight about 2 years ago. I was offered an extra melted ice-cream bar instead. I wrote them a letter and never heard back. Any feedback from the mgmt over at AF?

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2007-11-21 13:17:48 and read 32767 times.



Quoting CO777ER (Reply 22):
Well for what its worth, AF ran out of Y meals on a CDG - LAX flight about 2 years ago. I was offered an extra melted ice-cream bar instead. I wrote them a letter and never heard back. Any feedback from the mgmt over at AF?

= LOL. It does make me feel better  Smile. I was beginning to think I was not served because I was from Liechtenstein (kidding). No, feedback from management ... its been 3 months, so I am not really expecting to hear back.

Cheers,
A.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2007-11-21 13:20:29 and read 32767 times.

I should state that I have received 2 PMs from very nice and apologetic AF crew members who have also forwarded this link to upper management. It is interesting to note their pro-active handling of the situation ... wish management did the same!

Cheers,
A.

PS: Can crew members out there point something to me? Can you really run out of meals in an empty cabin? I mean, I can understand meals not being loaded ... but run out on such an empty cabin? Does this happen a lot? In J?

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: JetSetter629
Posted 2007-11-21 13:52:02 and read 32767 times.



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 21):
Its a big world out there ... but I am trying to cover it!

Awesome! I hope you fulfill your dream!

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2007-11-21 14:02:12 and read 32767 times.



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 21):
You guys. Trust me. I feel the pain! CDG is the worst airport in the world - and I am not just comparing it with the developed nations

Sorry if I seem to defend my people and my country, but what you say is not entirely correct. You cannot say that CDG is the "worst airport in the world". You seem to have travelled a lot, fine, but have you done all (and I mean "all") airports in the world? So may I correct you by saying that CDG is the worst airport you have personally been in?

I understand that you have hard feelings after what happened, but your conclusions must not be altered by your angriness.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 21):
I prefer transiting in (say) Tripoli than Paris.

Not the same size, nor the same amount of passengers. Please compare what is comparable.


That said, I'm on your side: what happened to you is not acceptable.

Cheers.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2007-11-21 14:18:46 and read 32767 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 26):
Sorry if I seem to defend my people and my country, but what you say is not entirely correct. You cannot say that CDG is the "worst airport in the world". You seem to have travelled a lot, fine, but have you done all (and I mean "all") airports in the world? So may I correct you by saying that CDG is the worst airport you have personally been in?

I understand that you have hard feelings after what happened, but your conclusions must not be altered by your angriness.

= I am not angry at all. I just reported the service as is. Please read over the report and find out all the things that were good and that I pointed out. Everything else was just bad. I documented it and provided pictures to support. Besides, if I was still angry for something like an arline service almost 4 months back, I should see an anger management therapist  Smile!

Your commentary made me think of that Hugh Grand/Sandra Bullock movie ... she is her legal advisor? She says, "YOu are the most obnoxious person in the world" and HG responds ... "thats plain silly. Have you met everyone in the world?"  Smile.

Of course, I can never say "CDG is the worst airport in the world". I have never been to all the airports in the world ... and alas, will never be  Sad. Ok, how about this? "For connection purposes, and/or when it involves dealing with airport staff, CDG is the WORST airport I have encountered from the 512 I have been to in the world". Happy?

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 26):
Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 21):
I prefer transiting in (say) Tripoli than Paris.

Not the same size, nor the same amount of passengers. Please compare what is comparable.

= Are you serious? It was a matter of expression. But perhaps bigger is not better? A good transit airport need not be big ... in Europe, see CPH, BRU, etc. The point of comparison here is NOT size ... it is the pleasure of transiting. After all, I dont take a connection flight for the size of the airport ... I take it for the convenience. If Tripoli can be better. why fly via CDG?

However, for the sake of argument, if you wanted me to make a comparison ... most would agree with my transfer experience being bettet at NRT, ICN, HKG, SIN, KUL, BKK, IST, JNB, MAD, AMS, ZRH, MUC, SFO, etc. The only airport I dread transferring of the same size is LHR ... but only when transferring terminals.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 26):
That said, I'm on your side: what happened to you is not acceptable.

= Thanks. Dont worry. I laughed off the incident. Besides, if I did not have such an interesting event, it would have been another boring TR. Remember, the glass is always half full  Smile!

Cheers,
A.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2007-11-21 14:40:50 and read 32767 times.



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 27):
Ok, how about this? "For connection purposes, and/or when it involves dealing with airport staff, CDG is the WORST airport I have encountered from the 512 I have been to in the world". Happy?

hahaha yes Big grin . There, I'm totally with you!

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 27):
Are you serious? It was a matter of expression. But perhaps bigger is not better? A good transit airport need not be big

What I mean is that an airport is always better if it's not a big... thing like CDG. I do prefer as well transiting or arriving in small airports (like the one I know by heart now: DUB, for example). It's more convenient, you go straight to your point, you don't need to walk for ages or take buses to switch terminals, etc. That's why I said that you cannot compare CDG with Tripoli, because it's obvious that small airport is more friendly than a big messy overcrowded airport like Paris'.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 27):
However, for the sake of argument, if you wanted me to make a comparison ... most would agree with my transfer experience being bettet at NRT, ICN, HKG, SIN, KUL, BKK, IST, JNB, MAD, AMS, ZRH, MUC, SFO, etc

Fair play to you  Wink


PS: please don't take the piss at me, I'm always picky with details Big grin

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Vio
Posted 2007-11-21 14:47:38 and read 32767 times.

Very good trip report.

I'm actually shocked to hear what you've just said. Wow!. I've never flown on AF before, but you get better service at McDonalds sometimes. Ouch!!! Shame on Air France for this. Really...!

Hope your future trips will be more pleasant.

Regards,

Vio
Calgary, Canada

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2007-11-21 14:48:07 and read 32767 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 28):
That's why I said that you cannot compare CDG with Tripoli, because it's obvious that small airport is more friendly than a big messy overcrowded airport like Paris'.

= LOL. You really have a problem with Tripoli don't you (just joking). I have actually only flown through TRI on Afriqiyah. Good and VERY bizarre experience. Libya is a fascinating country. Go visit before the tourists do!

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 28):
PS: please don't take the piss at me, I'm always picky with details

= As I said, its not a worry at all! I am picky with details as well. We would have interestingly heated bar conversations I am sure!

Saludos desde San Juan,
A.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: GrahamHill
Posted 2007-11-21 15:17:50 and read 32767 times.



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 30):
Go visit before the tourists do!

I will! But first I am preparing my trip to Sydney in February. I will probably take AF (to go to Singapore, then I'll fly with SQ to Sydney). I will share my experience with you and hope it won't be the same!

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 30):
We would have interestingly heated bar conversations I am sure!

hahaha for sure! Big grin

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Buck3y3nut
Posted 2007-11-21 23:20:44 and read 32767 times.

once again a great trip report... really enjoyed reading it. too bad you got that horrid service in J and that too from AF. Oh well, I guess not all crew members are good...
thanks for writing the report and sharing it with us  Smile

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: TYCOON
Posted 2007-11-22 01:15:33 and read 32767 times.

I am astounded by this report and sense there might be some exaggeration in it. I have flown both AF and DL ever since I was a young child both in economy and premium classes. I was and still am a DL Million Miler Medallion member for life and a Flying Blue Platinum member. I have basically stopped flying Delta since the service has become so poor and concentrate my trans-atlantic flights on CO or AF, service being much more acceptable.

Be careful as well in brandishing AF staff as racist due to a one-off comment because in doing so you are being racist yourself. I have seen airline staff and airport staff being racially insensitive throughout the world, but I don't blame the airline rather pity the ignorant individual.

About AF lounges at CDG, I agree there are a number of other lounges that beat them, but that is more an ADP problem than an AF one. ADP decides on design, capacity etc... of the CDG lounges and leases them to AF. I'm not even sure that personnel at the lounges are AF personnel (can someone clarify this?). But I have certainly been to worse ones.

And I have also been to worse airports in my life: namely LAX or JFK. Those are real nightmares.

I have found service on AF to have improved markedly. I even was prompted to write a letter to AF following a recent CDG-SDQ flight in Business class to compliment them on the service I had on board - which was nothing short of exceptional (and I have flown a number of airlines around the world).

I also think you exaggerate in your statements of AF lack of concern or customer care. For instance, just last week I flew AF from ORY to LCY with their subsidiary Cityjet. The flight wound up being over 2 hours late due to the strikes crippling France currently. Without any prompting or complaining on my part, I received an email from AF apologizing for in their words an "unacceptable" delay and informing me that they would be crediting my FF account with 2000 miles. That IS customer service.

I have flown LH business class a number of times, and my own preference is definitely with AF. I find the flight attendants classier and less rigid. There is an undeniable grace behind an AF stewardess - a "je ne sais quoi" that no other stewardess, IMHO, can match.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Marcus380
Posted 2007-11-22 03:38:07 and read 32767 times.

Pictures
not be seen

Can u fix it ?

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: DavidkunzVIE
Posted 2007-11-22 06:51:51 and read 32767 times.



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 20):
Wait wait wait, please don't make this AF bastard a generality for the company. Most likely you fell on a racist prick, but please don't conclude that all AF members are like that. Because it's simply not true.

Point taken.  Wink

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: B747forever
Posted 2007-11-22 07:40:04 and read 32767 times.

Brilliant TR.

As usual you makes good TRs.

The pics are really good.

Really pity that you had a bad experience with AF. Thought that AF was a great carrier.

Thank you for sharing.

B747forever.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2007-11-22 08:19:10 and read 32767 times.



Quoting Buck3y3nut (Reply 32):
once again a great trip report... really enjoyed reading it. too bad you got that horrid service in J and that too from AF. Oh well, I guess not all crew members are good...
thanks for writing the report and sharing it with us

= Sure. Thank you.

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 33):
I am astounded by this report and sense there might be some exaggeration in it. I have flown both AF and DL ever since I was a young child both in economy and premium classes. I was and still am a DL Million Miler Medallion member for life and a Flying Blue Platinum member. I have basically stopped flying Delta since the service has become so poor and concentrate my trans-atlantic flights on CO or AF, service being much more acceptable.

Be careful as well in brandishing AF staff as racist due to a one-off comment because in doing so you are being racist yourself. I have seen airline staff and airport staff being racially insensitive throughout the world, but I don't blame the airline rather pity the ignorant individual.

About AF lounges at CDG, I agree there are a number of other lounges that beat them, but that is more an ADP problem than an AF one. ADP decides on design, capacity etc... of the CDG lounges and leases them to AF. I'm not even sure that personnel at the lounges are AF personnel (can someone clarify this?). But I have certainly been to worse ones.

And I have also been to worse airports in my life: namely LAX or JFK. Those are real nightmares.

I have found service on AF to have improved markedly. I even was prompted to write a letter to AF following a recent CDG-SDQ flight in Business class to compliment them on the service I had on board - which was nothing short of exceptional (and I have flown a number of airlines around the world).

I also think you exaggerate in your statements of AF lack of concern or customer care. For instance, just last week I flew AF from ORY to LCY with their subsidiary Cityjet. The flight wound up being over 2 hours late due to the strikes crippling France currently. Without any prompting or complaining on my part, I received an email from AF apologizing for in their words an "unacceptable" delay and informing me that they would be crediting my FF account with 2000 miles. That IS customer service.

I have flown LH business class a number of times, and my own preference is definitely with AF. I find the flight attendants classier and less rigid. There is an undeniable grace behind an AF stewardess - a "je ne sais quoi" that no other stewardess, IMHO, can match.

= You are entitled to your point of view, and forums like this are meant to discuss various viewpoints. I am disappointed that you branded me to "exagerrate", but then again it is your prerogative. For me, I maintain that CDG is my least favorite airport; and please re-read the comments made above, I refer to THAT particular incident as racist, and THAT particular staff as racist. Although, I also mention that its not a one-off instance. I am glad AF has worked for you in the past. It did not for me in this incidence.

Quoting Marcus380 (Reply 34):
Pictures
not be seen

Can u fix it ?

= Your wish is my command. Fixed.

Cheers,
A.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: TYCOON
Posted 2007-11-22 08:34:50 and read 32767 times.

Abrelosojos, I did read carefully your whole report which was very interesting and you did write the following:

"Read what happened with the usual racist AF personnel at CDG"

What do you mean by "usual racist AF personnel"? That doesn't imply that you were being specific to the particular unfortunate incident, but you are intimating that AF personnel are racist - which is obviously an unfair and slanted comment.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2007-11-22 08:46:49 and read 32767 times.

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 38):
What do you mean by "usual racist AF personnel"? That doesn't imply that you were being specific to the particular unfortunate incident, but you are intimating that AF personnel are racist - which is obviously an unfair and slanted comment.

= Again, please do re-read. I mentioned this because it was NOT a one-off. Its not unfair or slanted because those are the experience I have onserved with AF CDG on several occasions. Many of their personnel are simply racist. I have not had that experience with cabin crew ... though, as this report indicates, they failed to meet my criteria of a basic service.

Thanks again for sharing your counter viewpoint and for highlighting your good experience with AF. As a resident of Paris, you use it more than I would!

Regards,
A.

[Edited 2007-11-22 08:52:57]

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: IDISA
Posted 2007-11-22 09:50:58 and read 32767 times.



Quoting TYCOON (Reply 33):
I also think you exaggerate in your statements of AF lack of concern or customer care.

Sorry TYCOON but I do not agree. Remember Abrelosojos was flying J and when you're flying J you're supposed to get what you deserve. Having a lounge without internet access, having NO MEAL and dirty utensils I think is much enough to say you're not having a good customer care.
Also he's still waiting for a reply from AF and it's been 3 months...It's clear that AF customer service realized they gave poor service but again I underline that we're talkin' of J pax and you CANNOT treat a J pax like that.
I perfectly understand that you may have flown AF a thousand times and never had a problem and AF may also be the best airline in the world but such a treatment is worth enough to never give AF another chance...

Regards
IDISA

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2007-11-22 11:42:43 and read 32767 times.



Quoting LACA773 (Reply 2):
Even by the looks of the amentity kits and the way you had them laid out, DL's actually looks like it came with more skin care products than the AF one did? What was the branding of the products in the kits? I'm a big fan of the kits (collect them).

= I finally got home after a week of work in San Juan. DL's is from LATHER, AF's is from CLARINS. I liked the AF kit because it had things I utilized ... like the shoe bag, which became my laundry bag during my trip!

Cheers,
A.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2007-11-22 17:10:52 and read 32767 times.



Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 4):
A TR on KQ could indeed be interesting, i´ve heard nice comments on their service.

MIAspotter

= Promised you a TR on KQ, and its up at Kenya Airways KQ 470: 19/AUG/07: NBO-BJM: Y Cabin (by Abrelosojos Nov 22 2007 in Trip Reports)

Cheers,
A.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Jyatlantic
Posted 2007-11-22 18:17:04 and read 32767 times.

What a fatal catering mistake!

You should request and expect a HEFTY, HEFTY compensation! I mean, this is unheard of in first/second class. Heck, even in third class I would expect a voucher numbering in the hundreds.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: ZKSUJ
Posted 2007-11-22 19:57:46 and read 32767 times.

Nice report, although its a pity to hear that your experience was not the best

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2007-11-23 08:13:40 and read 32767 times.



Quoting Jyatlantic (Reply 43):
What a fatal catering mistake!

You should request and expect a HEFTY, HEFTY compensation! I mean, this is unheard of in first/second class. Heck, even in third class I would expect a voucher numbering in the hundreds.

= I dont think I have ever heard the classes being referred to as first class, second class, and third class! LOL. Ya, I am not big into seeking compensation.

Cheers,
A.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: GoAllegheny
Posted 2007-11-23 15:20:57 and read 32767 times.



Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
I was not a fan of AF´s business class seats by any means. The 176 degrees lie flat was thoroughly uncomfortable, and with AF´s layout, I felt extremely cramped. I shudder to think how horrible it would be to have paid a full J fare and be on those seats on a full flight ... do they really have to be 2-3-2 seating?!

By the reports I read on A.Net, airlines (well, maybe US airlines in particular) are spending a lot of money on some pretty uncomfortable business class seats. The "old" UA business class seats on trans-pacific 777s seem pretty good to me, and what they lack in some of the amenities they make up for in space.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Vega
Posted 2007-11-23 22:14:39 and read 32767 times.

Gads!! Are you certain this was not a "Training Flight" ?  biggrin   biggrin 

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: SR 103
Posted 2007-11-24 06:31:28 and read 32767 times.

Once again, great report. Pleasure to read.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
To chose my seat assignment, I called AF and was promptly assigned the requested seat at the back of the J class cabin ... seat 8A. I was not impressed by the fact that this could not be done on Air France website at www.airfrance.com.

I agree, a very annoying feature but at least the Flying Blue agents I deal with on the phone are always pleasant, I can't say that about some US airlines I have to call often!

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
Given my usual sensitivity to such racist behavior, I politely asked for her name and have already dispatched a letter to CDG management. Not that I expect my letter to change this kind of completely unacceptable attitude.

Totally unacceptable. I would have done the same as you, but I would have sent a letter to Flying Blue myself. They tend to treat letter from their Elites very well.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
What was interesting and sad was that an old woman (80 years ) in front J was trying to put her small bag up. Since she was short, she was having a hard time reaching for the bin. The 2 AF FAs (haha, thats ironically a palindrome I just realized) just stood there watching her! I went and helped

Quite a contrast from most of the Air France crew I have had the pleasure of experiencing.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
The 176 degrees lie flat was thoroughly uncomfortable, and with AF´s layout, I felt extremely cramped. I shudder to think how horrible it would be to have paid a full J fare and be on those seats on a full flight ...

I did not find it all that bad, certainly better than BusinessElite from my experience. However the seat could use more padding and possibly more legroom.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
I skipped the cheese and the dessert in order to maintain my very toned body ... hehe. I must say though, the dessert tray looked absolutely delicious.

Shame, that is definately one of Air France's highlights. Just look at my trip reports for the different variations of dessert I have enjoyed.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
FA: "Let me see. Oh I am sorry Monseiur, we have no meals left for you."

Unacceptable, really bad on Air France's part. Ironically this has happened to me before, and of all airlines it was Delta! We really do have very different experiences don't we!

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
I mean, USED utensils

Again, absolutely disgusting. I really want to know the reason as to how that happened.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
Air France has an average IFE. The screens are average, and the selection of movies are also average.

I agree, very lackluster IFE system. I hear however they are updating it shortly to something similar to KL's system.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
However, they were NOT AVOD and the entire section called "WORLD CINEMA" had no films in it.

Thats very strange, all the movies have always been on demand for me. Wonder what happened to your aircrafts system.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
Besides the famous meal incident, I was amused that AF probably has the only J class crew that places the hot towel on the seat handle, and not on the passengers stretched out hand.

Never happened to me on all my Air France travels. You must really have had a horrible set of crew.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
I NEVER saw them between service runs. EVER. No water runs. Nothing.

This is something I have noticed on my Air France flights, the crew do tend to be lazy. However there were some crew members on my fligths that stood out from the rest and tried to provide some actual service. I do agree though, Air France crew do tend to seem lazy.

I apologize if I sound like I am defending Air France, I assure you that is not my intention, I do not even like Air France all that much. However I am astonished at the level of service you received on this flight, truly horrible. While I may have my issues with Air France, I do think their overall product is decent and well ahead of any US airline. It is a shame the way things turned out for you. Hopefully one day you will get the chance to try Air France again and experience the decent service most of us seem to get.

SR 103

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2007-11-24 08:57:12 and read 32767 times.



Quoting SR 103 (Reply 48):
Totally unacceptable. I would have done the same as you, but I would have sent a letter to Flying Blue myself. They tend to treat letter from their Elites very well.

= I am not part of Flying Blue. After KLM and AF merged their programs, I cancelled my Flying Dutchman membership ... think FB is a HUGE devaluation.

Quoting SR 103 (Reply 48):
I apologize if I sound like I am defending Air France, I assure you that is not my intention, I do not even like Air France all that much. However I am astonished at the level of service you received on this flight, truly horrible. While I may have my issues with Air France, I do think their overall product is decent and well ahead of any US airline. It is a shame the way things turned out for you. Hopefully one day you will get the chance to try Air France again and experience the decent service most of us seem to get.

= No need to apologize. I think forums like this are a great place to celebrate the diversity of experience. I personally think AF is pretty crappy - but there is a limit to the power of one  Smile.

AF crew are extremely lazy - EXCEPT those based in the overseas territories. AF LAX-PPT or even CDG-SXM depends totally on if its a Paris based crew ... I think its UNACCEPTABLE that they retire to the galleys after meal service etc.

Cheers,
A.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: DALelite
Posted 2007-11-24 14:08:07 and read 32767 times.

Wow, i am shocked by your AF review. Things like this should not happen in any premier classes.
Thank you for standing up for the black woman back in the lounge. I am black too and if this would've happend to me
i would've made this persons life misserable.

have a good one: dr gretschinser

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2008-01-20 12:52:08 and read 32767 times.

I have received several PM's over the last few months on whether AF followed up. Just to let everyone know that AF has not even acknowledged my letter ... and its been almost 6 months. What is equally disappointing is some AF crew who promised to follow-up with Paris and never got back. C'est la vie. I have a fat wallet to vote with  .

Thanks everyone for their comments and PMs. If anything changes, I will let people know.

Cheers,
A.

PS: (Edited to add) - I sent the letter via registered DHL.

[Edited 2008-01-20 12:53:32]

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: B707forever
Posted 2008-01-21 04:07:49 and read 32767 times.

I'm sad to say I'm not surprised by this trip report. Though I worked for AF back in the 80's for a bit, I find AF hit and miss. If you find a nice crew and the meals are present, it can be delightful. CDG, at best, is lousy for connecting. I'll take the new MAD or AMS anyday over CDG.

It's sad because Paris is such a great city and I love France, but I really have been off put by AF these past 10 years. I too find their J product far inferior to DL, LH and even BA (no big fan either here of them).

THx for the report, it sadly didn't surprise me.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Toulouse
Posted 2008-09-04 15:18:32 and read 32767 times.

Abrelosojos, well done on another inetresting TR. I am sorry you had such a bad experience with AF. In my experience, and I fly theml very frequently (well not the past year, but usually), I find AF crews to be amongst the most professional in Europe.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 27):
"For connection purposes, and/or when it involves dealing with airport staff, CDG is the WORST airport I have encountered from the 512 I have been to in the world". Happy

I'm also happy, as it's clear it's your opinion. Lots of people hate CDG (normal as it's one of the most widely used airports in the world, so logical there will be mroe complaints). Personnally, I find CDG2 a pleasure... now CDG1 is another story and should just be knowcked down or left as a musem on "how an international airport should not be designed". People differ, for me CDG is one of the easier "large" hubs to transfer at.
I have found ADP staff to be amongst the most helpful, actually in the many times I've transferred at CDG (maybe 50 times), I've never had a problem... suer the odd indifferent employee, but that's everywhere. And a couple of times, during strikes, both AF and ADP staff went out of their ways to solve my problems.

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 33):
I am astounded by this report and sense there might be some exaggeration in it

Tycoon, that is actually what I felt.

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 33):
Be careful as well in brandishing AF staff as racist due to a one-off comment because in doing so you are being racist yourself.

Totally agree.

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 33):
I also think you exaggerate in your statements of AF lack of concern or customer care.

Agreed.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 39):
Quoting TYCOON (Reply 38):
What do you mean by "usual racist AF personnel"? That doesn't imply that you were being specific to the particular unfortunate incident, but you are intimating that AF personnel are racist - which is obviously an unfair and slanted comment.

= Again, please do re-read. I mentioned this because it was NOT a one-off. Its not unfair or slanted because those are the experience I have onserved with AF CDG on several occasions. Many of their personnel are simply racist.

Still, be careful with the use of "usual" and not a "one-off". The story you quote is AWFUL if true, I like you cannot stand racism, yet as Tycoon said, your statement here could also nearly be considered as racist as you are not French. Not being funny or anything, but I take it your are a fluent French speaker? Just in case you misunderstood.

Quoting IDISA (Reply 40):
Also he's still waiting for a reply from AF and it's been 3 months

Wow, and I wrote letters to different airlines (numerous) years ago and I'm still waiting, so about 10 years ago I gave up sending letters of complaint (unless something very serious happened, such as Abrelosojos claims happened to him, if that happened to me, like him I would be writing letters, and also phoning and demanding an answer).

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 51):
What is equally disappointing is some AF crew who promised to follow-up with Paris and never got back. C'est la vie

Well, maybe they haven't had time. Or maybe they got no answer. Or maybe they just got tied up with their own professional/family lives and forgot.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 51):
I have a fat wallet to vote with

I'm delighted for you, really!

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2008-09-04 17:57:47 and read 32767 times.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 53):
In my experience, and I fly theml very frequently (well not the past year, but usually), I find AF crews to be amongst the most professional in Europe.



Quoting Toulouse (Reply 53):
I'm also happy, as it's clear it's your opinion. Lots of people hate CDG (normal as it's one of the most widely used airports in the world, so logical there will be mroe complaints). Personnally, I find CDG2 a pleasure... now CDG1 is another story and should just be knowcked down or left as a musem on "how an international airport should not be designed". People differ, for me CDG is one of the easier "large" hubs to transfer at.
I have found ADP staff to be amongst the most helpful, actually in the many times I've transferred at CDG (maybe 50 times), I've never had a problem... suer the odd indifferent employee, but that's everywhere. And a couple of times, during strikes, both AF and ADP staff went out of their ways to solve my problems.

= I am glad AF and CDG has worked for you. I have also flown them frequently ... until a string of bad experiences. Of course being in Toulouse, you might view the entire thing from a different lens. We will have to agree to disagree.

I am not a one-off traveler and spend more time on planes and hotels than in my flat, and I find Air France and ADP staff to be consistently to be amongst the worst in the world.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 53):
Quoting TYCOON (Reply 33):
I am astounded by this report and sense there might be some exaggeration in it

Tycoon, that is actually what I felt.



Quoting Toulouse (Reply 53):
Quoting TYCOON (Reply 33):
Be careful as well in brandishing AF staff as racist due to a one-off comment because in doing so you are being racist yourself.

Totally agree.



Quoting Toulouse (Reply 53):
Quoting TYCOON (Reply 33):
I also think you exaggerate in your statements of AF lack of concern or customer care.

Agreed.

= Both of you can feel to utilize my comments as an exaggeration. My TR's are not meant to win me popularity points or help in winning any kind of misplaced national loyalty  . As I said, like ANY OTHER trip reports, they are based on my experiences and feelings. And again, my credibility for these reports are out there on A.Net for all to judge.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 53):
Still, be careful with the use of "usual" and not a "one-off". The story you quote is AWFUL if true, I like you cannot stand racism, yet as Tycoon said, your statement here could also nearly be considered as racist as you are not French. Not being funny or anything, but I take it your are a fluent French speaker? Just in case you misunderstood.

= I am a fluent French speaker and none of the words can be construed as anything but purely racist and xenophobic. And, of course you can accuse me of "be considered racist" ... and I can also be convinced and totally disagree that you might "like you cannot stand racism". We haven't met ... so let us no go down that accusatory slippery slope of questioning personal integrity and limit this to my experience on this particular AF/CDF flight.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 53):
Wow, and I wrote letters to different airlines (numerous) years ago and I'm still waiting, so about 10 years ago I gave up sending letters of complaint (unless something very serious happened, such as Abrelosojos claims happened to him, if that happened to me, like him I would be writing letters, and also phoning and demanding an answer).

= Change does not happen by sitting on the sidelines. I am glad we agree on that.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 53):
Well, maybe they haven't had time. Or maybe they got no answer. Or maybe they just got tied up with their own professional/family lives and forgot.

= Great airlines and crew are those who go beyond their call of duty to follow up on situations and understand that they are reflective of their employer. It is not one AF crew we are talking about here. I have received great exemplary service from crews the world over. AF just is not one of them.

Thanks for reading.

Cheers,
A.

PS: I also tried to respond to TYCOON's comments by PM, but it seems the user had chosen to end their A.Net membership.

[Edited 2008-09-04 18:05:33]

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2008-09-04 18:00:59 and read 32767 times.



Quoting B707forever (Reply 52):
I'm sad to say I'm not surprised by this trip report. Though I worked for AF back in the 80's for a bit, I find AF hit and miss. If you find a nice crew and the meals are present, it can be delightful. CDG, at best, is lousy for connecting. I'll take the new MAD or AMS anyday over CDG.

It's sad because Paris is such a great city and I love France, but I really have been off put by AF these past 10 years. I too find their J product far inferior to DL, LH and even BA (no big fan either here of them).

THx for the report, it sadly didn't surprise me.

= Thanks for sharing your comments. It is really interesting for me to hear from ex-AF crew who are not surprised at my awful treatment in their hands. I have found AF short haul intra-Europe crew, and AF crew based on some French colonies to be much better than the long haul crew ex-CDG who tend to show all the negative qualities I talk about in my report. Thanks again for your posting.

Cheers,
A.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Toulouse
Posted 2008-09-05 01:23:32 and read 32767 times.

Abrelosojos, I do apologise if in my state of tirdeness last night I seemed to be accusing you. that was not the case, I enjoy your TR's and value your comments as much as anyone else. I just hate when such negative opinions are written in such a way that it may turn people off something.

There are definitely people here on a.net he seem to enjoy bashing AF/CDG/ADF/France, not saying it's your case, but it happens. Of course, others' defend them.

Your accusations are very serious. The comments of the AF staff you overheard at the lounge in CDG are disgraceful. I agree AF should respond, and take a severe stance on this. O would encourage you to insist in your complaint and keep us informed.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 54):
nd I find Air France and ADP staff to be consistently to be amongst the worst in the world.

As you say we must agree to disagree. I don't think, I could be mistaken, that you have as much experience as I do with AF/CDG and French airports in general, and my experience has been the total opposite. Yet I will agree that even with in AF, CDG sometimes is viewed badly outside Paris (just as Parisians often are by the rest of the French). A couple of years ago I was doing a simple intra-European connection in CDG routing TLS-CDG-DUB with AF and EI. I had about 3 hours in CDG, when I asked the man at the AF check-in desk at TLS if he could book my luggage straight through to DUB, he said of course, but as I see you have a long connection, and the TLS-CDG flight is on-time, I'd recommend you collect your baggage in CDG and check it in again with EI there, as you know how disoragnised CDG can be!

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 54):
I am glad AF and CDG has worked for you

Thank you.  Wink And I'm sorry they haven't worked for you.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 54):
Of course being in Toulouse, you might view the entire thing from a different lens

Not sure why, except perhaps I'm a more frequent user. I'm not French so it's not nationalistic protection. And if you get me started on the French government, economic development, the public services, tax, you'll see just how critical I can be of certain French services!

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 54):
We will have to agree to disagree.

Indeed.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 54):
I am a fluent French speaker and none of the words can be construed as anything but purely racist and xenophobic.

I was only asking. Again my apologies. It's just I found it so hard that such a comment could be made, especially in this situation, and in one of Europe's most multi-cultural nations (sure look at the national football team the French so adore... not many French people of white skin there!).

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 54):
And, of course you can accuse me of "be considered racist"

Not accusing you my friend, just saying how it could be interpreted by some. When I say in English that you "could be considered racist" I am in no way saying you are racist (I have no right to, there are no solid grounds to say so, and as you said, we have never met!). It was just a kind word of warning.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 54):
nd I can also be convinced and totally disagree that you might "like you cannot stand racism"

Sorry, I don't really understand this statement. If am understanding it as you meant to say it, the same as what I just said under previous quote stands.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 55):
I have found AF short haul intra-Europe crew, and AF crew based on some French colonies to be much better than the long haul crew ex-CDG who tend to show all the negative qualities I talk about in my report.


I will admit most of my experience with AF is domestic and intra-European, so this may be a valid point you make. I know of some other airlines where some pax feel the same. As much as running out of meals is a disgrace, I cannot believe how the F/A could give you a dirty and so clearly used knife. I suppose you complained about this? If it happened to me, I certainly wouldn't kick of a roar, as things can happen, but I'd certainly draw it to the F/A's attention, refuse to use it and kindly ask for a clean one.

Anyway Abrelosojos, thanks for your quick response. And again, no offense was intended!

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2008-09-05 11:34:10 and read 32767 times.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 56):
Abrelosojos, I do apologise if in my state of tirdeness last night I seemed to be accusing you. that was not the case, I enjoy your TR's and value your comments as much as anyone else.

= Thanks. I did not take them as you accusing me. You were expressing your views, and I were of mine.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 56):
I just hate when such negative opinions are written in such a way that it may turn people off something.

= We all form opinions based on various things. I value what I read on A.Net and it has helped me in deciding flights and airlines in the past. However, it is not the only source of information.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 56):
There are definitely people here on a.net he seem to enjoy bashing AF/CDG/ADF/France, not saying it's your case, but it happens. Of course, others' defend them.

= People have different views. However, if there is consistent criticism of AF/CDG/ADP/France by people from the outside, perhaps there just might be some truth to some underlying problem.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 56):
Your accusations are very serious. The comments of the AF staff you overheard at the lounge in CDG are disgraceful. I agree AF should respond, and take a severe stance on this. O would encourage you to insist in your complaint and keep us informed.

= As you can read from the dates, this flight was over a year back. Several phone calls and emails have gone unanswered. Since one of my passports is from a pseudo EU member, a complaint has been filed with Brussels and they have actually been remarkably pro-active. Additionally, it is being investigated at a high-level by Skyteam and Delta. AF HQ and their U.S. counterparts continue to remain unresponsive. The fact that they take serious accusations lightly is never a good sign.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 56):
As you say we must agree to disagree. I don't think, I could be mistaken, that you have as much experience as I do with AF/CDG and French airports in general, and my experience has been the total opposite. Yet I will agree that even with in AF, CDG sometimes is viewed badly outside Paris (just as Parisians often are by the rest of the French). A couple of years ago I was doing a simple intra-European connection in CDG routing TLS-CDG-DUB with AF and EI. I had about 3 hours in CDG, when I asked the man at the AF check-in desk at TLS if he could book my luggage straight through to DUB, he said of course, but as I see you have a long connection, and the TLS-CDG flight is on-time, I'd recommend you collect your baggage in CDG and check it in again with EI there, as you know how disoragnised CDG can be!

= As I said, we will agree to disagree. I wish I could say I have had a good experience with AF/CDG. I lived in France for a pretty long time - and have enough understanding of the country and the airline to form (I hope) informed decisions. However, you're right ... you probably fly AF much more than I do these days.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 56):

I was only asking. Again my apologies. It's just I found it so hard that such a comment could be made, especially in this situation, and in one of Europe's most multi-cultural nations (sure look at the national football team the French so adore... not many French people of white skin there!).

= Let us leave the politics of France out of this forum. You're right ... France is one of Europe's most multi-cultural nations ... and perhaps, that is why I find the lack of empowerment amongst "minorities" more stark. Given the numbers, one would expect success in politics (one Sarko pick to appease doesnt count), business, government, etc. This is just overall not the case. As I said, let us not delve into this here ... as it is beyond the scope of this forum. Finally, I do not personally believe that the composition of the French national football team is a testimony to national empowerment and progress.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 56):
Not accusing you my friend, just saying how it could be interpreted by some. When I say in English that you "could be considered racist" I am in no way saying you are racist (I have no right to, there are no solid grounds to say so, and as you said, we have never met!). It was just a kind word of warning.



Quoting Toulouse (Reply 56):
Sorry, I don't really understand this statement. If am understanding it as you meant to say it, the same as what I just said under previous quote stands.

= I understand what you were saying ... and I was using your logic to say how I could also potentially not believe in your statement that you were not racist. That is why it is a slippery slope.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 56):
I will admit most of my experience with AF is domestic and intra-European, so this may be a valid point you make. I know of some other airlines where some pax feel the same. As much as running out of meals is a disgrace, I cannot believe how the F/A could give you a dirty and so clearly used knife. I suppose you complained about this? If it happened to me, I certainly wouldn't kick of a roar, as things can happen, but I'd certainly draw it to the F/A's attention, refuse to use it and kindly ask for a clean one.

= Hey. I could not believe it as well ... and perhaps that is why you interpreted the response as exaggeration. You saw the picture of the meal running out ... and of the napkin ... and of the dirty knife ... all kinda hard in J class cabin of a pretty empty flight on a supposed world airline. It is appalling. Perhaps next time I will video-tape the scandalous conversations .

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 56):
Anyway Abrelosojos, thanks for your quick response. And again, no offense was intended!

= No offense taken. It is a global forum and we should all respect diverging opinions. I respect what you have to say. I am in Toulouse often as I love the city - and if you live there, I will buy you a drink the next time I am around.

Cheers,
A.

[Edited 2008-09-05 11:37:47]

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Whisperjet
Posted 2008-09-07 05:12:20 and read 32767 times.

Hi,

thank you very much for this interesting report.

I haven't read all comments regarding this report yet, so I hope nobody else has asked you this before. It would be interesting to know if you have already complained about the crew's behaviour and the missing food (I would definitely complain) and how they reacted.

Stefan

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: CastropRauxel
Posted 2008-09-07 06:51:09 and read 32767 times.

LOL... that was hilarious. I couldn't stop laughing (though I'm sure I wouldn't be laughing if I were you...). oh man. unbelievable. I just want you to know that I hold you responsible for the fact I just squirted orange juice out of my nose becasue your dialogue with Madame popped into my head while drinking (that was NOT a pretty scene. then again, so are used utensils).
after this Madame, the dude from LO seems very nice all of the sudden....

Well anyway, don't give up. write them again and again. this is definitely not a J experience.

Great TR! I love reading your reports  Silly

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Babybus
Posted 2008-11-12 12:47:33 and read 32767 times.

That seat in bed mode looks a bit lumpy. Was it?

I always look forward to meals on Air France and the service, in my experience, has always been fantastic.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Aleksandar
Posted 2008-11-13 13:08:44 and read 32767 times.



Quoting Abrelosojos (Thread starter):
Given my usual sensitivity to such racist behavior, I politely asked for her name and have already dispatched a letter to CDG management. Not that I expect my letter to change this kind of completely unacceptable attitude.

Ugly thing to witness. I would have done the same thing as you did. Did you get any reply from CDG?

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Abrelosojos
Posted 2008-12-02 11:45:20 and read 32767 times.

This report surely has a long shelf life.

Quoting Whisperjet (Reply 58):
I haven't read all comments regarding this report yet, so I hope nobody else has asked you this before. It would be interesting to know if you have already complained about the crew's behaviour and the missing food (I would definitely complain) and how they reacted.

= Yes. I sent them several letters and got no response. Initially, I had a few FA's from AF write me and how they would correspond with Paris. Of course, nothing came of it as well. They all seem to have gone silent.

Quoting CastropRauxel (Reply 59):
I just want you to know that I hold you responsible for the fact I just squirted orange juice out of my nose becasue your dialogue with Madame popped into my head while drinking (that was NOT a pretty scene. then again, so are used utensils).

= I apologize that you squirted OJ because of me  Wink.

Quoting CastropRauxel (Reply 59):
Well anyway, don't give up. write them again and again. this is definitely not a J experience.

= You see. After a while, one gives up writing. AF demonstrated its complete lack of care by not even acknowledging my several letters ... so I decided something better ... take my business elsewhere. While even my general largesses on aviation spending, I know it won't hurt AF ... but it gives me satisfaction nevertheless.

Quoting Babybus (Reply 60):
That seat in bed mode looks a bit lumpy. Was it?

= It was.

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 61):
Ugly thing to witness. I would have done the same thing as you did. Did you get any reply from CDG?

= Nope.

Saludos,
A.

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: CastropRauxel
Posted 2008-12-10 10:06:06 and read 32767 times.



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 62):
I apologize that you squirted OJ because of me Wink

Don't mention it, it was worth the burn!

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: Pumaknight
Posted 2008-12-10 12:12:40 and read 32767 times.

am sorry, but your TR made me laugh....I mean your service was so bad, you have to laugh, otherwise you would cry. the dirty knife is priceless!!! When I read the tet I thought you meant it hadn;t been washed properly, but hte picture....oh my god....that is some serious cheese!!!!

Brilliant - Thanks for taking the time to type. Loved it  Smile

Topic: RE: Air France AF 994: 10/AUG/07: CDG-JNB: J Cabin
Username: fidelidade
Posted 2012-12-28 17:38:12 and read 10892 times.

I read this and first I laugh at how funny it is. Then I become sad thinking you work so hard to earn money to pay for this? I mean, I can't understand how this can happen. Of course, France is a strange place where many people do not understand service. The chair and the environment remind me of taking the Rio subway after a Carnival party with lot of people. Except in carnival party people are hot. It is truly disgusting what you receive. Are you sure they cooks and the flight attendants were not on strike? In France people do this too many times.


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