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LHR-ABZ T5: From Bad To Worse!  
User currently offlineNighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 5157 posts, RR: 33
Posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8033 times:

Following on from ABZ-LHR T5 Report (by Nighthawk Mar 29 2008 in Trip Reports) part two can be found at the URL below. A few quick highlights:

- Aircraft boarded on time, then went tech
- Took 2 hours to negotiate with BAA to allow us off the plane - we were a security hazard!
- Escorted by staff to a new gate, staff at the gate had no idea we were coming
- Halfway through boarding the busses we were ordered back off the busses again!
- BA and BAA staff argued for 5 mins about whether they could board us or not
- Departed 3 hours late

Full report and some T5 pics: http://www.taxiwayalpha.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4498


That'll teach you
21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAznMadSci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3670 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7739 times:

Excuse my language, after reading that, all I can say is ... DAYUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  eek  Seriously hope BA, BAA, and whoever else gets their $#!+ in order! Thanks for sharing!

 wave 



The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
User currently offlineMusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1091 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7721 times:

Thanks for your report
3 hours late then you should be able to claim compensation under the EU regulation. I strongly suggest you do this.
Its a shame of BA or BAA or the security people. They need communication.
And by seeing the later flight arriving earlier than you, this feeling is absolutely bad!



Lufthansa Group of Airlines
User currently offlineVikingA346 From Sweden, joined Oct 2006, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7703 times:

Get over it - some people weren't blessed with a 3 hour delay - but were unfortunate enough to have their flights cancelled all together.

T-5 just opened a few days ago and it will take some time before things are organized. BA and the BAA are working on getting the "glitches" fixed - whether its communication or simply getting standards set. GIVE IT TIME PEOPLE. The biggest terminal to terminal move in world history is going to take time to get organized - it isn't gonna happen overnight. We knew there'd be glitches and certain things not working. It's definitely worse than we expected but don't go bashing BA and BAA for all this - just give it time and be happy you at least got to your destination.



...you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you shall return
User currently offlineMusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1091 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7691 times:



Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 3):
GIVE IT TIME PEOPLE

There are industires that are time-critical and involves many people. I think aviation is one of them. Look at how other parts of Europe (Munich Airport Terminal 2), Asia (HKG, SIN, ICN) do things, then you will know what is understandable, and what is just barely ignorance.

Have you read the BBC news? Let me show you some extracts

On http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7318337.stm, it says ""BA claimed 'staff familiarisation' was to blame. The staff, however, would blame the lack of training and the essential support that was promised," "During the inadequate training days prior to the opening, any staff questions were bounced back with 'I don't know' and 'It will be clear on the day'. "Staff signage is non-existent and quite frankly, how are we expected to help customers if we are not helped first?"

It also reports the doubt of 'British to deliver large project properly' through this incident.

So how much time do YOU think we should give?



Lufthansa Group of Airlines
User currently offlineJsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2037 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7487 times:



Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 4):
Look at how other parts of Europe (Munich Airport Terminal 2), Asia (HKG, SIN, ICN) do things, then you will know what is understandable, and what is just barely ignorance.

In each of those cases, the airport operator was actually interested in running an airport. This is BAA we're dealing with here. Notice that in all this media coverage, there hasn't been a single problem with any of the shops or restaurants. I'm sure they're all doing great business - so as far as BAA are concerned, it's "mission accomplished."


User currently offlineB707forever From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7030 times:

I'm impressed that BA are having better baggage movement in 3 or 4 days since the opening. That beats what happened at Denver and Madrid upon their openings. I can forgive the baggage type of mishaps but the escalators and unfinished infrastructure of the building is a real no no in my book.

User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17066 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6788 times:

Nice TR

The pics are good.

So sad to hear about all this. But at least you got to ABZ.

I am really looking forward for visiting T5 this summer.




Thank you for sharing

B747forever



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19230 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6432 times:

Why should paying customers be tolerant of the disaster? What's in it for them? Nothing. They rightly expect a seemless experience. But they're not getting it; indeed, what they're getting is absurdly inadequate. Would it be acceptable if a newly opened restaurant didn't have acceptable hygene and put it down to "glitches"? Of course not. Customers should get what the expect, and more besides. They aren't interested in the reasons why they don't get it beyond mere information - they want action, not excuses. So, those affected have every right to be thoroughly pissed off and disappointed. The question is: what will BA do to make it up to them? I guess bugger all.


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineVikingA346 From Sweden, joined Oct 2006, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6212 times:



Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 4):
It also reports the doubt of 'British to deliver large project properly' through this incident.

So how much time do YOU think we should give?

Do you believe every media article you read? If so, you have a lot to learn because as we ALL know - the media often paints a very different picture rather than the actual reality.

By Thursday we should have T-5 running normally. Like I said, the biggest terminal to terminal move in WORLD HISTORY is gonna take time - a week is not a lot of time to ask for.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 8):
Why should paying customers be tolerant of the disaster?

They chose to fly through Terminal 5 when they booked their ticket. I'm not saying anyone could have anticipated this - they (should have) known that the opening of T-5 would come with some glitches - it just happened to be a lot worse than we expected. I'm not blaming anyone, but when you book travel on a carrier, you agree to abide by the T&C. Just like you book travel and have your flight cancelled b/c of wx, IT HAPPENS. Nobody can anticipate it - it just happens. The important thing is the airline gets you from point A to point B - that's what you pay for.



...you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you shall return
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19230 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6182 times:



Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 9):
The important thing is the airline gets you from point A to point B - that's what you pay for.

If BA and the like (i.e. non-LCC) were about simply getting you from A to B, then what would happen if your e-ticket was wrong? What would happen if the check-in agents swore at you and ignored you? If the crew swore at you? If there were endless delays, with no useful information? If your seat and surrounding area was dirty and scruffy? If you didn't receive your bag as expected? It's far more than merely going from A to B - it's an experience, it's the whole package. And customers rightly expect that things should go faultlessly, and that airlines, like any other business, should do whatever possible to make their experience memorable. And when there are problems, they should not only get apologies but also something to get 'em back onside, for without 'em, you're nowt.

Talking your point, a restaurant is technically about giving you food. Say you went into a high-end restaurant. What would you feel if the place was dingy, the waiters unfriendly and rude, and the general environment and atmosphere unpleasant? The food might have been delicious, but your whole experience would have been much worse than expected because of those other things. So you'll be pissed off, go elsewhere and tell everyone about it. So, when things mess up, get 'em back onside.

I see, according to your profile, you work for BA. Perhaps that explains your views.  Wink



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineMusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1091 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6040 times:



Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 9):
By Thursday we should have T-5 running normally.

Quote on that please, if you dont mind?

Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 9):
they (should have) known that the opening of T-5 would come with some glitches - it just happened to be a lot worse than we expected.

That just goes back to the point I made earlier, see reply 4.

Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 9):
Do you believe every media article you read?

And lastly, no. But I have not picked up any articles more positive on what I quoted. And might be Pearson is right, you work for BA and you are biased, end of story.



Lufthansa Group of Airlines
User currently offlinePlanesarecool From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 4124 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5914 times:



Quoting Jsnww81 (Reply 5):
there hasn't been a single problem with any of the shops or restaurants.

Running a shop or restaurant is slightly different to running a whole terminal. Seriously, give this whole "BAA only care about shops and restaurants" crap a rest now, it's starting to get boring. Aside from which, probably around 90% of travellers welcome the 'masses of shops' at these airports.


User currently offlineNighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 5157 posts, RR: 33
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5729 times:



Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 9):
By Thursday we should have T-5 running normally. Like I said, the biggest terminal to terminal move in WORLD HISTORY is gonna take time - a week is not a lot of time to ask for.

Is it really the largest move in world history, I have seen this mentioned many times, but im not sure if it is really true or not. Surely moving from one airport to another ala HKG would be a bigger operation logistically?

As for everything working normally - from my experience on Sunday everything seemed to be working relatively smoothly in the terminals - there were queues for security which staff claimed was moving slower than it should have been, but apart from that no real issues. I believe the baggage system broke down later in the day, but overall its not far off working smoothly.

Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 9):
They chose to fly through Terminal 5 when they booked their ticket. I'm not saying anyone could have anticipated this - they (should have) known that the opening of T-5 would come with some glitches - it just happened to be a lot worse than we expected. I'm not blaming anyone, but when you book travel on a carrier, you agree to abide by the T&C. Just like you book travel and have your flight cancelled b/c of wx, IT HAPPENS. Nobody can anticipate it - it just happens. The important thing is the airline gets you from point A to point B - that's what you pay for.

First of all you cant really compare weather to terminal moves. Terminal move issues should have been detected during the trials and resolved. Additionally a staged move should have been attempted rather than an all at once approach. All issues should have been identified and all risk minimised.

As for passengers chosing to fly from T5, I would bet that about 95%+ of passengers had no idea they would be travelling through a new terminal when they book. In any case are you seriously saying passengers should have chosen to fly with BD instead of risking BA and T5 for the first two weeks until everything settles down?

I deliberately booked with BA so I could experience T5, I did not anticipate any problems as I assumed BA had correctly identified the risks and taken every steps to minimise them. There were lengthy trials prior to the opening, which should have caught all issues. This was not the case, and was a major failure on BAs part.



That'll teach you
User currently offlineKiramakora From Argentina, joined Aug 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5535 times:



Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 3):
T-5 just opened a few days ago and it will take some time before things are organized. BA and the BAA are working on getting the "glitches" fixed - whether its communication or simply getting standards set. GIVE IT TIME PEOPLE. The biggest terminal to terminal move in world history is going to take time to get organized - it isn't gonna happen overnight. We knew there'd be glitches and certain things not working. It's definitely worse than we expected but don't go bashing BA and BAA for all this - just give it time and be happy you at least got to your destination.

If larger airports around the world can move entire operations across large cities, I find this excuse hard to believe. Given the amount of pounds spent on the rather smug project, BA and BAA deserve every blame. In fact, if I was a shareholder, I would like to see some top management go. They obviously do not have any idea about project implementation.

Great TR. Thanks for sharing.


User currently offlineKiramakora From Argentina, joined Aug 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5528 times:



Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 9):
but when you book travel on a carrier, you agree to abide by the T&C. Just like you book travel and have your flight cancelled b/c of wx, IT HAPPENS. Nobody can anticipate it - it just happens. The important thing is the airline gets you from point A to point B - that's what you pay for.

PS: Sorry had to also comment on this piece of apologetic crap. When anyone "agrees" to "abide by the T&C", I am sure the BA T&C does not state implicit harassement, delays, cancellations, and bags not showing up. Moreover, EVERY customer pays to get from point A to point B WITHIN the times mentioned in the ticket. Otherwise, what is the point?


User currently offlineMusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1091 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5437 times:

Quoting Kiramakora (Reply 15):
PS: Sorry had to also comment on this piece of apologetic crap. When anyone "agrees" to "abide by the T&C", I am sure the BA T&C does not state implicit harassement, delays, cancellations, and bags not showing up. Moreover, EVERY customer pays to get from point A to point B WITHIN the times mentioned in the ticket. Otherwise, what is the point?

Obviously, his statement makes me stay away from BA as one of its employee boldly make a statement like this on an aviation website.

[Edited 2008-04-02 10:30:34]


Lufthansa Group of Airlines
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19230 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5418 times:



Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 16):
his statement makes me stay away from BA as one of its employee boldly make a statement like this on an aviation website.

I also don't like it what he came out with: he's trying to wriggle out of responsibility and accountability - and trying mightily to blame customers - and he's trying to make excuses for what materalised. Fact is, there are no excuses. It was a royal cock-up. WW effectively admitted it, albeit far too late (24 hours after the problem started). Now, how is your employer going to make it up to those affected?

Anyway, I'm going to tonight book BA LHR-FRA for the end of June. Let's hope Terminal 5 will be as it should be by then.  Wink



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2501 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5117 times:



Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 10):
If BA and the like (i.e. non-LCC) were about simply getting you from A to B, then what would happen if your e-ticket was wrong?

Well BA is one of the airlines which when things go wrong do the most to get you to your destination asap. That happened to me before and they were very helpful providing alternative routes/airlines and food vouchers.

Some other airlines like KLM/Air France (which is becoming a feature), will only transfer you to their next available flights. They will never look for alternatives with other airlines and sometimes won't give you a voucher if flights are operated by franchises.

Now, why excluding the LCC? They do not offer anything when things go wrong...

Now saying all the mess is BA's fault is OK but saying BA is not doing anything for its customers is a bit too much.

What would happen if STN came to a halt and all FR flights were to be cancelled. Imagine the Chaos there!!!!



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineVikingA346 From Sweden, joined Oct 2006, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4865 times:



Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 13):
Is it really the largest move in world history, I have seen this mentioned many times, but im not sure if it is really true or not. Surely moving from one airport to another ala HKG would be a bigger operation logistically?

Largest terminal to terminal move in world history yes, not largest airport to airport move.

Quoting Kiramakora (Reply 14):
If larger airports around the world can move entire operations across large cities, I find this excuse hard to believe. Given the amount of pounds spent on the rather smug project, BA and BAA deserve every blame. In fact, if I was a shareholder, I would like to see some top management go. They obviously do not have any idea about project implementation.

Top management is not going to go - Willie Walsh is taking the blame and when he was asked if he is going to resign he immediately said no.

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 16):
Obviously, his statement makes me stay away from BA as one of its employee boldly make a statement like this on an aviation website.

You know what, I'm not even gonna comment. You obviously have a pre-existing bias against BA so my comments here are not going to sway your opinion. I'm sorry you've had bad experiences with us but at the end of the day, everyone has bad experiences and all I can say is look at the world airline ranking and tell me BA isn't consistently in the top 5 airlines in the world year after year.

Terminal 5 is a fabulous facility and is going to astound people so much in the coming years that this "mishap" opening of T5 is going to be forgotten. Let me be the first to say that.



...you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you shall return
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19230 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4745 times:



Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 19):
everyone has bad experiences

That's irrelevant. It's a shoulder-shrug, an I-don't-careless reaction. Why not try everything possible to ensure that everyone has positive experiences in every part of their contact with BA? Aim for 100% in every aspect. That might well be unattainable, but aiming for anything less ithan brilliant is absurd - it's defeatest. It's shocking that someone who works for BA is seemingly happy that paying customers aren't always getting good experiences. I suggest you change your mindset for it'll become a hindrance, an excuse for bad performance.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3909 times:

The most shocking thing about this event is it shows up a big hole in BAA planning:

They had no procedure in place for changeout of an aircraft on a domestic route.

What the hell, man?

Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 9):
They chose to fly through Terminal 5 when they booked their ticket. I'm not saying anyone could have anticipated this - they (should have) known that the opening of T-5 would come with some glitches - it just happened to be a lot worse than we expected.

This argument might work if BA and BAA hadn't spent the months leading up to the opening banging on about what an orgasmic experience flying from T5 was going to be.


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