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A Greenland Odyssey (Pics+Vids)  
User currently offlineThule From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 113 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 22293 times:

Hi everybody, this is my first trip report and post here on A.net, so go easy on me, and I hope you enjoy it. I'd like to think I have a lot of pictures here, though not a lot of them inside cabins as I have an aversion to snapping away. Part of it is just post-9/11 angst, and the other part is that it just seems a little awkward to me.

This trip was part of a summer 2008 University of Washington "Exploration Seminar" 3-week field class in Copenhagen and Greenland to learn about glaciers, ice sheets, and climate change. I hopped on board because it sounded like a once-in-a-lifetime experience, and, needless to say, because of the unique flight opportunities. We'd originally planned to fly the weekly BWI-SFJ route that Air Greenland had inaugurated with plenty of hype a few years ago, but in March I saw that they'd cancelled the route, sending my teachers into a panic. They shifted a lot of the travel plans, doing a layover in Copenhagen, with the convenient and famous non-stop from SEA. That actually turned out to be a great choice, as our teachers had a lot of connections with the climate folks at the University of Copenhagen. But enough of that - onto the trip report!

One more thing before I start: A.net user Myk posted another Air Greenland trip report back in Summer 2007, complete with takeoff/landing videos and cabin pictures. Take a look at it here: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ums/trip_reports/read.main/105419/

I spent the night before the trip at a friend's house in Bremerton. I didn't sleep much due to the usual pre-travel excitement. I took the trip to SEA on the Bremerton Airporter bus - I definitely recommend it to anyone in the Kitsap area who hasn't used it before.

Crossing "Galloping Gertie" - the Tacoma Narrows Bridge

Once I got to SEA, it was through check-in and security, and then the tram to the S Satellite. This would be my first trip out of SEA in a satellite concourse, where there were plenty of plane-spotting opportunities.

S Satellite

Plane-spotting - the BA 747

Whoa there - welcome to the Colonies

Scandinavian Airlines SK 938
August 12, 2008
Airbus A340-300
Depart 06:45pm
Arrive 01:15pm Aug 13
Flight time: 9:30
Economy, seat 33F

Here it is!

Adalstein Viking at the gate

This was my first trip on the beloved (and soon to disappear!) SEA-CPH flight, and my first non-stop flight across the pond. I was a bit upset at the non-window seat, but that's what you get with group reservations. I was sitting next to an elderly couple, the husband of which was a retired Boeing worker who kept ranting that he was violating his first rule of travel by flying on an Airbus - "If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going." After a few hours of this, I almost wanted to ask him why he was going in the first place. Service was top-notch, even though the FAs seemed to have more of an accent than I'd expect on an international (and Scandinavian) flight. Meals in Economy are a genuine treat for us Americans these days, though they were definitely European, with the tiny cans of pop and parts of the entree served cold. I didn't sleep much, but SAS's IFE system is excellent, along with their coffee in the morning. We arrived at beautiful CPH the next afternoon.

The CPH Terminal and transit area

I won't bore you too much with CPH photos, but I will say that it was probably the nicest and most livable city I've ever been to. Grad school? I wish.

One of our meeting locations


Finally, on the 15th, was our travel day! After taking a taxi to the train station and the short train ride to the airport, we checked in at the quite-chaotic Air Greenland desk. To their credit, their CPH-SFJ flight is the largest flight AG runs, and the most people they probably ever have in one place. We were told that our baggage would be checked through to JAV (Ilulissat), which impressed me and made me a bit nervous at the same time. After security and the huge duty-free shop maze, we got to our gate.

You know you're at CPH...

Air Greenland GL 781
August 15, 2008
Airbus A330-300 "Norsaq"
Depart 09:15am
Arrive 09:55am
Flight time: 4:40
Economy, seat 35E

First sight of our plane!


Service on this flight was odd. The cabin had very little branding, and was all grey, just like the FA uniforms. GL really packed in that 330 with a 2-5-2 seating configuration, and I was squished in between one of my poor friends in the middle seat and a friendly Greenlandic woman in the aisle. Beverage and meal service was done all in one go - I got a choice of three separate drinks, and they all came in one pile with the meal. The whole meal was cold, which I could tell from my experiences in Denmark was common, but I had a feeling that it was about to become even more common. I'm a window seat guy, and I was extremely jealous of one of my teachers who got moved there and who took pictures of the scenery, and then the long approach into the fjord. As we got closer to SFJ, I could see the walls of the fjord out both sides of the plane. The landing was accompanied by applause from everyone on the plane, either Greenlanders happy to be home, or tourists like us excited by the unique place we'd just arrived at.

The first sight I had of Greenland. Whoa.

Down the jet stairs and into the SFJ terminal to collect ourselves, then a trek around the runway to find a building to hold a meeting/class in.






SAS has a seasonal flight to SFJ on an A319, and it arrived just a few minutes before ours. From a European perspective, I'm sure it was more comfortable and had better service, but I don't understand people who go to Greenland for the comfort and service. I'm much more satisfied with my "authentic" flight. Furthermore, they taxied to the other side of the runway, had to bus to the terminal, and didn't have their luggage transferred for them to their connecting flights.

After a few hours, and a short lecture on the basics of glaciers and ice sheets, it was time to head back to the terminal to catch our flight to Ilulissat. Domestic flights in Greenland have no security checkpoint, because... well... what would be the point? The flight was delayed for about an hour for no discernable or intelligible reason (the airport announcer was quiet), but when the gate agent put up the placard for our flight, everybody rushed into line to jostle for the best position - they'd heard about which side of the plane to get on to see the show.

Air Greenland GL 512
August 15, 2008
Depart 02:45pm (this was more like 4pm)
Arrive 03:30pm (more like 5pm)
Flight time: 45 min
Seat: A Window on the right, near the back. 9D, maybe?

Our plane (sorry about the blurriness)


Goodbye Kangerlussuaq

This was my first time on a Dash-7, and man, those things are powerful. They're relatively loud for today's turboprop age, but I assure you that you'll appreciate the four engines on Greenland's short runways. The FA's briefing was quick - we were told that it would also only be in Danish and Greenlandic. Luckily, everybody had been through these plenty of times before. From what I remember of the safety cards, there were also some special wetsuits on board that would keep you alive in the freezing water. This flight even had drink service, along with some cookies. After just a few minutes, things got foggy, and just a few seconds after we started our descent...


Looks like I spoke too soon...

This was the Ilulissat Icefjord, the largest and most productive glacier in the northern hemisphere. It was foggy, so I didn't get to see too much, but this ice was one of the main reasons we were in Greenland, so I would get plenty of viewing opportunities later on.



JAV Terminal

Dash 7s

Bag Claim

Ilulissat is probably one of the most beautiful places you could ever travel to. The town itself is a little scrappy, just like all arctic towns. But it's all about the nature. I'll keep the non-aviation pics to a reasonable level, but I'll give a quick overview of our land- and sea-based activities.

We spent the afternoon and night in a hostel in Ilulissat, then took off on a 5-hour boat trip to the Eqi glacier, about 50km north, for a 3-night hiking/camping trip and excursion up onto the ice sheet. After returning to Ilulissat and visiting the Icefjord in all its glory, we took another boat over to the town Qeqertarsuaq (Godhavn) on Disko Island, where we stayed at the Arctic Research Station, had some lectures, and went on some hikes for a few days. A very choppy boat ride back to Ilulissat, one more Icefjord visit, then a 2-night trip on the Arctic Umiaq Ferry down to the capital of 16,000 people, Nuuk.

Sled puppy

Eqi Glacier

Mashed potatoes and Whale Stew

Standing on the Greenland Ice sheet edge, looking out to sea


The Qeqertarsuaq helipad, with a Disko Bay iceberg all the way from Ilulissat in the background


After a huge amount of classes, presentations, and meetings with some important Greenlanders, it was time to start making the long trek home. Nuuk's airport, GOH, serves the largest city in Greenland, but only has an STOL runway, so all Copenhagen travelers have to go through SFJ. Interestingly, Air Iceland serves Nuuk with a few flights per week. Again, no security for domestic flights. It was an early morning.

Air Greenland GL 502
August 28, 2008
Depart 07:00am
Arrive 07:55am
Flight time: 55 min
Seat: 1D, rear-facing





I also managed to get some video in of the takeoff and landing. In the first you can hear a bit of the pre-recorded safety briefing, and the second is our landing at SFJ. There are plenty of other Air Greenland videos on YouTube by other people, for those interested.

Takeoff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDb9duVVciQ

Landing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEYjcGqjJ8Q

Back in Kangerlussuaq, we had an extra day and night of spare time before our flight back to CPH. Much of it was spent biking, doing coursework, and, of course, plane spotting. I managed to bike out to a shack that was about half-way down the runway, an excellent position.

Today's CPH arrival

Dash 7 liftoff

Air Greenland GL 784
August 29, 2008
Depart 09:40pm
Arrive 06:30am
Flight time: 3:50
Seat: 18F

After dinner at the airport cafeteria (I had a muskox burger) we got on the overnight flight back to CPH, on AG's 757-200. It was even a more odd plane than the 330, as I don't think there was a first class section, and meal service was non-existant. It was a sleepy, not terribly comfortable 4-hour flight back to CPH. When the sun rose and I saw Denmark and "civilization" as we know it, the magnitude and beauty of the place I had left hit me all at once, and I wanted to turn the plane around and go back.



Godmorgen København

After a few more nights in Copenhagen, and a trip to the University's GEO-Center to see some Greenland ice cores and hear a lecture, it was time to fly back to Seattle.

SAS A319 in retro paint

Our ride back

Scandinavian Airlines SK 937
September 2, 2008
Airbus A340-300
Depart 03:50pm
Arrive 04:50pm
Flight time: 10:00
Economy, seat 34H

This flight was a treat, as I got moved into a window seat this time. After a few hours, we were flying over Greenland, and I almost wanted to jump out. Probably not a good idea for anyone involved.


The SEA south approach


That's all I really have at this point for a trip report! I hope all the technical parts of it work out, and I look forward to feedback or any questions anyone has about anything.


26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineUAL757 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 22270 times:

Awesome! Thanks for writing this, I would love to go to Greenland someday  Smile

Welcome to A.net too, it's a great place. Sucks they are taking the SAS flight away from us here in SEA.

Nice report, maybe next time you could work up some "TR courage" and take a few more pictures  Wink

Anyhow, this was a very unique and fun read.

User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17291 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 22215 times:

Welcome to A.net!

What a great and very interesting TR. First time I read about intra Greenland flights!

Really interesting to note that they dont have any security check on their domestic flights. I wouldnt actually like to fly on a flight without any security check before, even though it is Greenland, you never know!

It is really sad that SAS will stop serve SEA soon.

Quoting Thule (Thread starter):
Air Greenland GL 784
August 29, 2008
Depart 09:40pm
Arrive 06:30am
Flight time: 3:50
Seat: 18F

I think you got that part wrong  Wink

Hope to see more TRs from you!

Thank you for sharing


Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineVasu From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 4029 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 21679 times:

2-5-2 in an A330? Don't think any carrier has this, sorry.

Excellent report though! Loved the pics!

User currently offlineAirthanet From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21590 times:

WOW! A fantastic trip report from a unique part of the world!

Your photos are brilliant, but maybe one or two of he GL cabin would have been nice....
May I also point out that you flew on a B757 on the SFJ - CPH route, not the Dash. I would love to visit Greenland one day and fly with GL.

Great report..............

Recently Flown Airlines: Air Malta (KM), My Travel (MYT), First Choice (FCA), Swiss (LX), Virgin Atlantic (VS), Monarch
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 18143 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21558 times:

One of the best TR I've seen in a while! I bet I speak for everyone that more "nonav" Greenland pics would be appreciated if you've got a few that you want to add.

Quoting Thule (Thread starter):
on Disko Island


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineThule From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 21252 times:

Thanks for all the compliments! I'm really sorry about the 757/Dash 7 mistake... but once a TR gets past a certain size, it gets harder to spot everything.

Quoting Vasu (Reply 3):
2-5-2 in an A330? Don't think any carrier has this, sorry.

Whoops, you called me on this one. I found a cabin pic on A.net, and you're right, it's 2-4-2 in economy, tapering off to 2-3-2 in the back. Guess I just felt a little cramped.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Christian Waser

Quoting Airthanet (Reply 4):

Your photos are brilliant, but maybe one or two of he GL cabin would have been nice...

Here's one of the Dash 7 that I found on A.net:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Christian Waser

One thing that photo doesn't show was that there were normally one or two sets of seats removed from the back-right section to make room for cargo.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
I bet I speak for everyone that more "nonav" Greenland pics would be appreciated if you've got a few that you want to add.

Happy to oblige!

Another view from Ilulissat

A whale

typisk grønlandsk mad?

Hike to a land glacier

Don't fall in


Yield to dogsleds

the basalt cliffs of Disko Island

Goodbye Ilulissat! (on the ferry)

the city of Sisimiut

The village of Kangaamiut. A smaller boat had to be launched to pick up ferry passengers from it.

Nuuk main street

the new Greenland cultural center

Nuuk meat market

Nuuk "old town" and statue of Hans Egede

Narwhal at the University of Greenland

I hope the pics are entertaining! Keep up the questions and comments, I'm happy to read and answer them.

User currently offlineELAL772 From Israel, joined Jun 2008, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 21111 times:

this trip report is amazing!
I have always wanted to travel in the direction of Iceland and Greenland. Simply amazing.

Excuse my ignorance, but Im not sure: Greenlanders are actually Danish citizens and speak Danish?

User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1419 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 20949 times:

Thank you very much for this extra ordinary report! You can't see those every day here.

Going to Greenland and Iceland is a lifetime dream to me, hope to do that someday. At least i got just a taste of it from your report.

"In Israel, on order to be a realist, one's must believe in miracles" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 20789 times:

I so agree with you about Copenhagen being livable. Loved it when I was there during the summer. Great trip report about a place you rarely hear about. That stew looked really good. hehe  Smile

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1919 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 20775 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

great trip report, i've flown over greenland several times enroute to and from europe, so it's nice to see what the place actually looks like from the ground.

Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
User currently offlineBananaboy From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 1602 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 20716 times:

Great report on an unusual carrier and destination.
Thanks for sharing.


All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
User currently offlineBuck3y3nut From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 883 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 20571 times:

wow what a fantastic trip report to write for a first time. Truly an amazing experience. I would love to go to Greenland some day. It just looks beautiful.
thanks a bunch for writing and sharing this trip report  Smile

User currently offlineMarcos From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 20562 times:

Hey, you know I don't think it is too politically correct to be eating whale meat :>)

Excellent post.

User currently offlineMyk From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 20395 times:


Always nice to see a trip report about Air Greenland. I flew with them 2 years ago and I loved it.
Someone told me that the red coloursheme is due to the fact than in case of search and rescue, it would be easier to find the plane.

Anyway, thanks for posting.

BTW, you can also read my older tripreport about GL (I am absolutely not willing to hijack this thread, I think its just nice to have different angles of view).



User currently offlineEconojetter From Malaysia, joined May 2001, 430 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 20302 times:

Thank you so much for sharing this experience with us.

Quoting Thule (Thread starter):
typisk grønlandsk mad?

I see a slice of bread, a pat of butter, fish (smoked? cured?), shrimp and... what are the two lumps?

User currently offlineBA319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8644 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 20184 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Great report, loved the pictures of Greenland, looks like a fascinating place to visit!

Quoting Thule (Thread starter):
Eqi Glacier

Quoting Thule (Thread starter):

- Love these 2 shots!

Good to get on a Dash-7, real rare birds!



User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2297 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 20171 times:

Thank you for an absolutely fascinating trip report. I enjoyed the non-airplane pictures more than the airplane pictures!

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 10):
i've flown over greenland several times enroute to and from europe, so it's nice to see what the place actually looks like from the ground.

I agree 100%. Every time I see Greenland (or Newfoundland) from the air, I think to myself that it would be wonderful to see the scenery from ground level. Maybe someday.....

Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1928 posts, RR: 41
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 20071 times:

I envy you A LOT for this trip! I would love to fly those dash-7s! Thanks for sharing!

Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..
User currently offlineDunaA320 From UK - England, joined Feb 2009, 617 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 20068 times:

Great report, really interesting!

You were so lucky to get the opportunity to visit Greenland, it looks amazing! I would love to visit

User currently offlineInfodesk From Switzerland, joined May 2006, 1475 posts, RR: 32
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 19778 times:

Wow, what a gem of a report. It's always a treat to find a report on Greenland here on airliners. You seem to have had the trip of a lifetime and seen so much stunning scenery. Pity to hear that the CPH-SFJ legs weren't the best in terms of service.

I hope that I'll make it to Greenland one day too. Many thanks for posting!

Happy flying

"Do nothing in haste, look well to each step and from the beginning think what may be the end" - Edward Whymper
User currently offlineWideBodyroga From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 613 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 19641 times:

What a lovely TR. I loved the extra pics! I've been looking for TRs from Greenland for a long time. You are indeed very privileged to have been given the opportunity to travel there!

Great job!

Visit my aviation page: http://widebodyroga.weebly.com/
User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 3128 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 23 hours ago) and read 19480 times:

Quoting Thule (Thread starter):
Mashed potatoes and Whale Stew

I don't care what people think, but it is good (coming from a Norwegian). Anyway, in the North sea there is no lack of whale, and in some areas whales are dying, due to overfishing of fish. Whales are not fished much either, and we do use all the meat.

Quoting ELAL772 (Reply 7):

Excuse my ignorance, but Im not sure: Greenlanders are actually Danish citizens and speak Danish?

I believe there are the native people, who have their own language. However, as Greenland is under Danish rule, it has Danish as an official language, and a lot of the people living there are actually from Denmark.


From Norway, live in Australia
User currently offlineThule From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 7 hours ago) and read 19317 times:

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 22):
Quoting Thule (Thread starter):
Mashed potatoes and Whale Stew

I don't care what people think, but it is good (coming from a Norwegian). Anyway, in the North sea there is no lack of whale, and in some areas whales are dying, due to overfishing of fish. Whales are not fished much either, and we do use all the meat.

Quoting ELAL772 (Reply 7):

Excuse my ignorance, but Im not sure: Greenlanders are actually Danish citizens and speak Danish?

I believe there are the native people, who have their own language. However, as Greenland is under Danish rule, it has Danish as an official language, and a lot of the people living there are actually from Denmark.

1. Greenland is a member of the International Whaling Commission, via Denmark, and has a limited yearly quota of whales they are allowed to hunt. Rest assured it's done ecologically, humanely, and sustainably. However, there has recently been talk of Greenland trying to exit the IWC, as the IWC has been placing limits on it based primarily by Danish and European standards, and the now-large whale population around Greenland can be responsibly hunted in larger amounts. It makes for interesting debate, as do the many other traditional aspects of Greenlandic life and how they differ from European life.

2. Greenlanders are Danish citizens and have Danish passports (no customs or passport checks on the flights to or from Greenland... we were sort of bummed that we didn't get a Greenland passport stamp though!). In November, the Greenland Home Rule Parliament passed a referendum calling for increased control over domestic affairs, though Denmark is still in charge of most of the security, international representation, social services, and of course the multi-million Kroner subsidies Greenland receives yearly as a block grant. 80-something percent of Greenland's citizens are Greenlandic Inuit, and most speak Greenlandic (Kalallisut) and are ethnically and linguistically similar to the Inuit (Inukitut -speaking) of northeast Canada (Nunavut). Most of the remaining population is Danes, and the majority of them work in administrative positions in Nuuk, with the rest running much of the transportation and scientific research infrastructure such as the huge fishing boats and of course our friendly GL pilots.

Greenland's colonial relationship with Denmark has become strained at times, though most Greenlanders admit that Denmark is probably the best colonizing power there could have been, due to its progressive social policies and generous flow of cash...

Much more information about the politics and everything else about Greenland can be found in its Wikipedia page, and the many references it links to. I've acquired quite the stack of books and articles in recent months and would be happy to share a list of them with anyone interested. Of course, I would also be more than happy to answer any questions personally if anyone has them.

Thank you so much for your positive feedback on the TR, especially the equal enthusiasm for the non-aviation parts of it.

User currently offlineLH4116 From Sweden, joined Aug 2007, 1720 posts, RR: 18
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 7 hours ago) and read 19306 times:

Very nice and interesting report Thule!

The pics of Greenland looked great. Greenland seem like a rather exotic place, even for a Scandinavian person. I would love to visit that place some day.

It would have been nice with some more detailed info about your flights, especially since SAS longhaul, and Air Greenland aren't covered that much in the forum, but hey, I shouldn't complain.

Thanks for posting, and i enjoyed reading!


SAS Plus is Business Class made faux!
25 AlexEU : Great trip report with excellent pictures ! What kind of school offers school trips to the Greenland !!!? I'd really love to visit Greenland one day,
26 Contact Air : Great trip report and lots of fantastic pictures! Greenland must be an impressive place. The Dash 7 is an interesting plane as well that has become ra
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