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Egyptian Holiday (4): From LXR To CAI With MS  
User currently offlineAkhmad From Netherlands, joined Sep 2005, 2486 posts, RR: 53
Posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 11204 times:

INTRODUCTION

Hello fellow A.netters,

The pyramids, the mummies, the Abu Simbel statues… one by one we got through. The next destination would be Luxor, our home base for visiting Valley of The Kings and The Queens and the temple of Hatshepsut.

We eventually have gone so far and gladly experienced the first encounter with LX on our outward journey on the segments of AMS-ZRH and ZRH-CAI.

It went even better with the first time domestic experience with MS on the segment ASW-ABS-ASW.

But before I continue, allow me to share you some impressions out of Luxor.

The Temple of Karnak



The entrance to the temple


Some of the many statues found inside


The obelisks

Valley of The Kings and The Queens

The Egyptian government has reinforced the prohibition of photography on both sites. Since last August it is totally forbidden to bring along your camera with you. Either you have to hand it over at the entrance or leave it behind inside your transportation.



The view before the entrance to Valley of The Kings

I must say that I was very excited to enter the tombs and behold the remarkable work of art hidden for many decades. A truly once in a lifetime experience.  Smile

The Temple of Hatshepsut







Horus, the gatekeeper

PREPARATION

We got to Luxor by the evening train. Another local representative was already waiting for us. He brought us to our hotel and checked us in.

After the check in being organized, I inquired him our tickets to Cairo.

He showed us the E-ticket confirmation. We were booked with Egyptair. (What else?  Smile)
On browsing the details, the first thing I verified was the spelling of our names. They did manage to copy it this time. Then I looked forward to was the aircraft type flown. WHAT? A Boeing? No Embraer?  hissyfit 

I was disappointed. But as the aircraft would be B737-500 and it was a missing type on my log, oh well, I could put up with it. By the way, the departure time was not that bad actually.

Later on, I found out that despite the correct spelling, our representative has mixed up our names. We had been registered on our first names instead of surnames. But I was not so worried about it after our flight experience to Abu Simbel. However, I did point it out when he arrived to collect us to the airport. He just said that he would be taking care of it. OK, that was fine with us!


AT THE AIRPORT

We got collected before nine o’clock in the morning and went straight to the airport.

Outside public view of the terminal

Luxor has upgraded its terminal building in 2005. I must say I like the interior.






Taken from inside our car


Just after getting off our car


CHECK IN

Our representative directed us through the security towards the check in area. He then checked us in.



Inside view from the check in area after security


Check in area


Our check in desk


Boarding pass


FIDS

Our representative handed over our boarding passes and wished us a pleasant journey. We then proceeded through the security to the waiting room.


The airside

Past the security, I saw some interesting paintings on the wall.


One of the paintings




Waiting room


Our assigned gate

There were other crowds as well when we arrived. I presumed that they would be on the same plane with us.





Through the window I spotted this beauty on a distance

I was under the impression that the Embraer would fly elsewhere in Egypt until a boarding call was made for passengers of MS Express bound for……. CAI!

I was bewildered. I could have flown with the Embraer as she just departed forty five minutes earlier than our flight!  cry 





Bye bye sweetheart

I then joined my partner having a strong double espresso. At 10.10 our plane arrived.



Hey, it does not look like a B737-500




It is a B737 Next Generation with winglet

I thought, “Bummer, an aircraft swap!”


FLIGHT INFORMATION



Our itinerary:
Route: LXR-CAI
Date: 25 September 2009
ETD/ATD: 10.45 / 10.50
ETA/ATA: 11.45 / 11.54
Flight number: MS 073
Plane: Boeing 737-866
Registration: SU-GCO
Delivered: 12 September 2007


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © David Roura - Iberian Spotters




BOARDING

The boarding call was made about twenty minutes before departure time.



Gathering before the boarding gate

We were bussed to the aircraft as she was parked at the far end of the terminal.



The winglet view

Actually, I was getting used to the fact that we were about to fly a Boeing 737 Next Generation. The winglet view gradually changed my mind. It was not bad after all.





The boarding scenes


The airside view of the terminal from the stairs

We were greeted by one male and one female cabin attendant. We then proceeded to the economy section. Apparently, this aircraft is equipped with Business Class cabin. It will not surprise me if MS deploys this bird abroad.



Business Class cabin


Waiting in line


Finally our seats 30J and K: the middle and the window seat

How about the surroundings?
Well, we have got these seat features:



Seat cloth




Seat control unit

The seat pitch, enough for a short flight

These seat views:


View of the left side


Retractable in flight screen with an Google Earth like display


Outside view

In the magazine rack there were the same Horus in flight magazine as showed on my previous report to Abu Simbel and the following things:





The safety card

In the meantime boarding was still in progress.



Our flight was only half full. There were a lot of empty places to be found including the emergency exit rows. Some passengers were moving there after the door closed. We did not bother it this time since it was a short flight.

Among us were two groups of foreign tourists travelling together with their guides. One guide has however decided to move to the empty row right before us. When he was tossing his belongings on the seats, I started to think aloud, “Don’t you dare….”
Even it would be a short flight, I hate having other’s seat lying on my lap. Thank God, the guide took the aisle seat!

We experienced an interesting feature in this aircraft, when the engines were started, they were saying some prayers . Then, we started moving.



Leaving the apron


Taxiing


Entering the runway


TAKE OFF

The engines spooled up and soon we were rocketed to the air.








Leaving the beautiful green landscape in the dessert…











IN THE AIR

About ten minutes after takeoff, the beverage service was started. They have got water, juices and soft drinks on offer.





Just orange juice for me

The in flight screens started broadcasting some comedies, like Just For Laughs and a Mister Bean episode.


Flying above the desert

The nature called. So, it was time for an obligatory visit to the toilet.



Toilet view

MS did a good job on this flight by maintain the toilets properly clean.



Cabin view

Since I did not pay any attention to the pre flight announcement. I did not get the name of the captain. So, I asked one of the flight attendant on duty for his name. She smiled broadly by seeing me taking out my notebook and then hanged on the telephone for further inquiry. At the end, she told me that Captain Mohammed Issem was in charge for this flight.

Twenty minutes after takeoff the attendants started collecting the rubbish. About ten minutes later, we experienced some turbulences. Everyone was requested to return to his seat and keep the seat belt on.

Then I saw a couple sitting on the slanting opposite row getting up and gathering their belongings. To other passengers’ astonishment, they went up and down several times from their former seats to an empty emergency exit row. Apparently, they wished to secure the last empty emergency exit row. Well, be my guest!

The approach

After forty minutes into flight, Captain Issem announced through the intercom that we were approaching the airport of CAI.





The view of pyramid. It is neither Giza nor Sakkara, anybody help?


The pyramids of Sakkara


Someone has left his footprints on the wing!


LANDING

This time, we approached CAI from another side than the one with LX on the outward journey. I noticed a lot of straight street blocks. Perhaps some new built up areas?










A moment before touchdown

And finally the touchdown.









AT THE AIRPORT

We vacated the runway towards Terminal 3. I have captured some interesting shots on the way:



The construction of a new control tower in progress


Sad view of Midwest A313

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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Konstantin Von Wedelstaedt
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © PRM




Saudia B743 and Etihad A332 at Terminal 2


Etihad A332, Alitalia A321 and Emirates B777

We were approaching Terminal 3:



Lufthansa A342


Sistership Boeing ready for her next assignment


SQ B773 right after pushback




Star Alliance gathering


Embraers’ nursery with a babysitting Airbus

And finally our gate:






Back in CAI! Thank you, MS!



It has been a pleasure, MS!  Smile


ARRIVAL

We were disembarking through the domestic terminal. Allow me sharing some impressions on our way to the baggage claim hall.



Last shot from the aerobridge


Going upstairs


Through the corridor


FIDS


Outside view


I just love the interior  Smile


Just follow the sign


The baggage claim hall

The assigned conveyor belt was located behind the glass wall in the background.



Our luggage was delivered on belt 6

Upon leaving the baggage hall, we were met again by the local CAI agent. We were guided to the departure hall on the third floor from where we would get onboard LX for our return journey to AMS.



Arrivall hall


VERDICT

Again, Egyptair was a satisfactory. Friendly and efficient service on board of a newer plane. I would not hesitate flying MS domestically, even if there is no alternative.

I hope that you enjoy reading my trip report. This is the last part of my Egyptian domestic experience. I am working now at the final report of this holiday, the C experience with LX. In the meantime, please feel free to leave some comments and suggestions.

Cheers,
Suryo


Friends forever
21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAirbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4273 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 11132 times:

Hi Suryo!

That's a, at least to me, much better view on MS, as in your previous journey!
A pity you didn't get on the Embraer, but the B738's winglets are also very nice! I like it!
btw, you were in row 30? How is the numbering on these aircraft then? Usually a B737-800 have 31 rows in total, but judging from your pictures, the view would normally from around row 18 or so?!

Nice pics all the way, and I'm not more positive about MS again  Smile

Regards,
Eric



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineGlenP From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 11109 times:

Great TR.

Loved the shots of Luxor; both the sights & the airport (shame they seem to have moved the MI-8 Hip that's normally parked at the northern end of the apron or you couold have added an unusual type to your spotting book  Smile ) Certainly, the new terminal's much better than the old one at LXR used to be.

Seems like MS did a good job on the domestic service, again.

BTW, the unknown pyramid is the Red Pyramid of Sneferu, at Dashur.

You also took a boldeer step than I did & captured some shots of the CAI T3 domestic arrivals hall. Got to agree that it is a great looking terminal.

Just out of interest, which hotel did you saty at during your time in Luxor & do you have any impressions of it?

Can''t wait to see how LX J class goes on the return to the Netherlands.


User currently offlineEgyptair269 From Egypt, joined Mar 2007, 198 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10983 times:

Your installments keep getting better and better. I think this one of the best, most detailed MS reports on A.net. Good Job  bigthumbsup 

Looking forward to your C Class installment. Btw since you're flying in C that means you'll have access the newly opeend premium lounge at CAI's T3. It just opened a week ago infact. If you do manage to get us some photos of that, that would definitely be an A.net first!

The MS B737-800s are great. I beleive the latest ones even have a newer business class than the one you showed us. Good to hear that crew were friendly.

Salam,
EgyptAir269


User currently offlineAkhmad From Netherlands, joined Sep 2005, 2486 posts, RR: 53
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 10521 times:



Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 1):
That's a, at least to me, much better view on MS, as in your previous journey!



Quoting GlenP (Reply 2):
Great TR.

Loved the shots of Luxor; both the sights & the airport



Quoting Egyptair269 (Reply 3):
Your installments keep getting better and better. I think this one of the best, most detailed MS reports on A.net. Good Job

Hi Eric, Glen and Egyptair269. Many thanks for reading and the compliments. Glad you guys enjoyed it.  Smile

Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 1):
How is the numbering on these aircraft then?

MS has an unusual numbering in their B737NG's. If I remember correctly, the Y cabin starts from row 20.

Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 1):
I'm not more positive about MS again

Maybe you can give it a try sometime.

Quoting GlenP (Reply 2):
the new terminal's much better than the old one at LXR used to be.

I have never been on the old terminal. But yes, the present terminal is passenger friendly.

Quoting GlenP (Reply 2):
BTW, the unknown pyramid is the Red Pyramid of Sneferu, at Dashur.

Thank you for the information.  Smile

Quoting GlenP (Reply 2):
which hotel did you saty at during your time in Luxor & do you have any impressions of it?

We were staying at Etap Mercure Cornish Hotel. Unfortunately, I did not take any pictures of it. I should have done it afterwards.  Sad

Quoting Egyptair269 (Reply 3):
Btw since you're flying in C that means you'll have access the newly opeend premium lounge at CAI's T3. It just opened a week ago infact.

I am afraid we have just missed it. We were invited to another premium lounge. I will cover it on my following TR.

Quoting Egyptair269 (Reply 3):
Good to hear that crew were friendly.

They were really hospitable.  Smile

Cheers,
Suryo



Friends forever
User currently offlineFLIEGER67 From UK - England, joined Sep 2003, 5173 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10414 times:

Hey, Suryo,

you know, I love especially that reports with location details and pix.
A superb story, well done and thats for sure an exciting part of you´re Egypt trip.

And I know, you will catch the Embraer soon!.

Looking for more LX now.

Best regards,
Markus (FLIEGER67)



Next: London City connections!.
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6824 posts, RR: 77
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10390 times:

Hi Suryo,

another nice report with great pictures from Egypt. Too bad you missed both the E170 and the 735.

Quoting Akhmad (Thread starter):
Well, we have got these seat features:

The seat design is very nice, good to see MS didn't install plain seats like so many carriers in these days.

Quoting Akhmad (Thread starter):
Sad view of Midwest A313

Wow, that looks bad.

Quoting Akhmad (Thread starter):
Lufthansa A342

It's a A343. LH's A342s were transferred to SAA some years ago.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineAkhmad From Netherlands, joined Sep 2005, 2486 posts, RR: 53
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 10338 times:



Quoting FLIEGER67 (Reply 5):
A superb story, well done



Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 6):
another nice report with great pictures from Egypt.

Hi Markus, PH, thank you for your comments.

Quoting FLIEGER67 (Reply 5):
And I know, you will catch the Embraer soon!.

I certainly hope so. Next time better.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 6):
It's a A343. LH's A342s were transferred to SAA some years ago.

Thanks for the correction. I should have known that LH no longer operates A342.

Cheers,
Suryo



Friends forever
User currently offlineDazbo5 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 2921 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 10313 times:

Great trip report, thanks for sharing. I'm off to Luxor in March so nice to see your photos to give an impression of what to expect.

Darren



Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
User currently offlineAirbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4273 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 10312 times:

Hi again,

Quoting Akhmad (Reply 4):
Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 1):
I'm not more positive about MS again

Maybe you can give it a try sometime.

Sorry, maybe I typed to fast. My sentence should read "I'm now more positive about MS". For sure I'll take this airline when I've the need or chance to do so. I meant that your report gave me a better impression then you had on the A320 flights.  Wink

Regards,
Eric



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineEgyptair269 From Egypt, joined Mar 2007, 198 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 10256 times:



Quoting Dazbo5 (Reply 8):
Great trip report, thanks for sharing. I'm off to Luxor in March so nice to see your photos to give an impression of what to expect.

Darren

Can we expect a TR?  Big grin


User currently offlineAkhmad From Netherlands, joined Sep 2005, 2486 posts, RR: 53
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10096 times:



Quoting Dazbo5 (Reply 8):
Great trip report, thanks for sharing.

Hi Darren, thank you for reading my TR. Glad you enjoyed it.  Smile

Quoting Dazbo5 (Reply 8):
I'm off to Luxor in March



Quoting Egyptair269 (Reply 10):
Can we expect a TR?

I am with Egyptair269 here.  wink 

Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 9):
Sorry, maybe I typed to fast. My sentence should read "I'm now more positive about MS".

Eric, no worries. So can I look forward to your flight with MS?

Cheers,
Suryo



Friends forever
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27121 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 10067 times:

As always a great report. Love the first pics of the sights especially and also love the MS J class seats.

Keep them coming

OA260


User currently offlineAkhmad From Netherlands, joined Sep 2005, 2486 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9872 times:



Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):
As always a great report. Love the first pics of the sights especially and also love the MS J class seats.

Hi Philip, thank you. It has been a pleasure.  Smile

Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):
Keep them coming

I have got the return journey with LX aired now.

Cheers,
Suryo



Friends forever
User currently offlineRonerone From Jordan, joined Aug 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9645 times:

Suryo!

Another great TR, and a fantastic ending to your Egyptian domestic experience.


Nice to know that Egyptair is maintaining standards that are higher than those of others. Working with their people here in AUH has been quite hassle-free and professional compared with other airlines from the region. So i can only expect the same out of their onboard experience. The Star Alliance status must have played an integral part for them, similar to what i believe Oneworld has made out of Royal Jordanian.


One question, were you ever questioned or stopped by anyone at the airports or on the aircraft for taking any pictures? When taking flights in Middle Eastern airlines (minus the GCC carriers) and traveling through Middle Eastern airports (also minus GCC) i am always hesitant to go full on with the pictures, so i am just curious. Security is very high in that region, and i always assumed MS and Egyptian airports to be the same.


Thanks a lot for sharing! Im not going to read your grand finale!

Regards,
Roni



A Stop Away From One-Stop, Is Non-Stop : Airbus A340-500
User currently offlineAkhmad From Netherlands, joined Sep 2005, 2486 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days ago) and read 9620 times:



Quoting Ronerone (Reply 14):
Suryo!

Another great TR, and a fantastic ending to your Egyptian domestic experience.

Hi Roni, thank you for reading.

Quoting Ronerone (Reply 14):
Working with their people here in AUH has been quite hassle-free and professional compared with other airlines from the region.

Glad to hear that. I am quite sure that we will learn more satisfying experiences with MS in the future.

Quoting Ronerone (Reply 14):
The Star Alliance status must have played an integral part for them, similar to what i believe Oneworld has made out of Royal Jordanian.

No doubt. Royal Jordanian is however an airline I would like to fly with sometime.

Quoting Ronerone (Reply 14):
One question, were you ever questioned or stopped by anyone at the airports or on the aircraft for taking any pictures?

Not at all! You know what? I was hesitant at the beginning to take pictures as I learned a firm warning about it in our travel guide.
But then I noticed that many other TR's included the photos of the Egyptian airports as well, so I decided to give it a try and with me many other people. I took the gate picture at Luxor airport when the security guards were actually sitting beneath it.

Quoting Ronerone (Reply 14):
When taking flights in Middle Eastern airlines (minus the GCC carriers) and traveling through Middle Eastern airports (also minus GCC) i am always hesitant to go full on with the pictures, so i am just curious.

I can imagine that. I got rapped over the knuckles once when I was trying to photograph the aircraft I was going to board in DOH.

Quoting Ronerone (Reply 14):
Thanks a lot for sharing! Im not going to read your grand finale!

It has been a pleasure. I hope you enjoy the final part.  Smile

Cheers,
Suryo



Friends forever
User currently offlineRonerone From Jordan, joined Aug 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 53
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9547 times:



Quoting Akhmad (Reply 15):
Quoting Ronerone (Reply 14):
Thanks a lot for sharing! Im not going to read your grand finale!

Oops! I meant 'now' and not 'not'  Smile hehe



A Stop Away From One-Stop, Is Non-Stop : Airbus A340-500
User currently offlineAkhmad From Netherlands, joined Sep 2005, 2486 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9544 times:



Quoting Ronerone (Reply 16):
Oops! I meant 'now' and not 'not' hehe

No worries.  wink 



Friends forever
User currently offlineContact Air From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 1154 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 week ago) and read 9443 times:

Hi Suryo,

thanks for another part of your Egyptian travel which was once again an interesting read.

Quoting Akhmad (Thread starter):
Luxor has upgraded its terminal building in 2005. I must say I like the interior.

I agree, having visited Luxor Airport in 2006 for flying home to STR I have to say that it is a great airport to travel through.

Regards
Christoph


User currently offlineAkhmad From Netherlands, joined Sep 2005, 2486 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 9412 times:



Quoting Contact Air (Reply 18):
Hi Suryo,

thanks for another part of your Egyptian travel which was once again an interesting read.

Hi Christoph, glad you enjoyed it.

Quoting Contact Air (Reply 18):
I agree, having visited Luxor Airport in 2006 for flying home to STR I have to say that it is a great airport to travel through.

I have read your TR of it! It must still have been brand new that time. I think the airport authority is doing a great job on maintaining the terminal building.

Cheers,
Suryo



Friends forever
User currently offlineBA319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8561 posts, RR: 54
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9247 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Hi Suryo,

Nice report & pictures, looks like you were having a great time, weather looks great!

Quoting Akhmad (Thread starter):
The Egyptian government has reinforced the prohibition of photography on both sites. Since last August it is totally forbidden to bring along your camera with you

- Why?

Quoting Akhmad (Thread starter):
The Temple of Hatshepsut

- Looks fantastic!

Quoting Akhmad (Thread starter):
the aircraft would be B737-500 and it was a missing type on my log

- Cool  Smile

Quoting Akhmad (Thread starter):
It is a B737 Next Generation with winglet

I thought, “Bummer, an aircraft swap!”

- Yes, bummer indeed!

Quoting Akhmad (Thread starter):
this aircraft is equipped with Business Class cabin. It will not surprise me if MS deploys this bird abroad

- Yes, MS do run these on INTL services.

Quoting Akhmad (Thread starter):
Apparently, they wished to secure the last empty emergency exit row. Well, be my guest!

- I always thought these seats had to have at lease 1 person in them for TO/landing?

Quoting Akhmad (Thread starter):
Sad view of Midwest A313

- Yes, sad indeed.

Regards

Mark



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlineAkhmad From Netherlands, joined Sep 2005, 2486 posts, RR: 53
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 9228 times:



Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 20):
Hi Suryo,

Nice report & pictures,

Hi Mark, thanks for reading. Glad you enjoyed it.

Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 20):
- Why?

Our guide told us that the Egyptian government has proceeded to this rigid security measure after several tedious incidents involving some dodgy tourists who despite the obvious warning in advance were taking pictures inside the tombs. These actions flowed into some hefty arguments with the tourist polices. The policemen took the matters very seriously that they sometimes had to take the offenders into custody.
In order to avoid any further inconveniences from both sides, the government eventually decided to implement the total prohibition.
Quite a shame actually!  Sad

Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 20):
- I always thought these seats had to have at lease 1 person in them for TO/landing?

So did I. That is why I am not sure now if this measurement is really compulsory to every airline.

Cheers,
Suryo



Friends forever
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